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The failure of many 'good' astrologers to predict the election is demoralizing

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barleywine View Post
If you look at the link to the astrologers who were wrong, you'll find one that used the George Washington chart.
Oh wow ...I'll check it out. So they used the date/time/city that George Washington became inaugurated?

I'll check it out tomorrow....thanks for sharing that.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanda View Post
Barleywine mentions an astrologer got it wrong with a "George Washington" chart -- I bet either of you two could do it better. My inclination without looking at any link is that particular astrologer messed up somewhere else. Does it not make sense that "everything" (at the time) would be in place for a birth in politics with the first president's inauguration?
I did predict Trump would win. It came as no surprise. But I didn't use Astrology or cards. I intended to but the lack of a credible birth time for Hillary stopped me trying.

Instead I read the reports coming out of rust belt states and realised I'd been it before in Brexit. The same strong desire for change , the same belief that the establisment didn't take any notice , the same distrust of experts and the same distrust of immigrants. The parallels were too great and with Nigel Farage putting in advice to Trump it just couldn't be ignored. If Trump had announced he was the antichrist, he would still have won (well he almost did make that claim, saying he could shoot people in the street and still win).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanda
Additionally, George Washington was an "Independent" and it was during his time that the political parties divided, which is pretty significant to this particular election with Republicans in such strong power across the board at the moment. It should make for an easier astrological read (I would think) with these known 'controls'. I mean, it's known over time how the presidents have changed and when, so that seems like a given that would be easy to read against by other influences.

Ah well... I don't know what I'm talking about.
But if you read my comments, I never said that this approach was wrong. I said that there were difficulties, which is a different thing. You highlight those difficulties in your comment. The Presidency was qualitatively different, both in the way that the election was fought and the way that the result was decided. It wasn't obvious then that the president would develop into the wielder of direct executive power as now. That power might have ended up vested in the Secretary of State and Alexander Hamilton effectively played the role of Prime Minister, with Washington as a constitutional monarch. Things began to change with the election of 1800.

You make a very good point in supplying a time, date and place, something that Astrologers want. There's a lineal connection with modern elections and it has a lot going for it. I don't see it as wrong, I just see difficulties in keeping the analogy alive.

We have the same issue in the UK. The coronation of William the Conqueror is often cited as the Birth of the nation. But the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish would see things differently. Nations aren't born in the same way people are and while it's an analogy that is useful, it doesn't always hold.
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Agreed, state-building is messy and fractious, and the stoke of a pen usually signifies nothing more than intent and feigned good-will. I've never had much use for either of the USA charts as showing any kind of "natal" event because the concept is such a moving target. Mundane astrology does seem to make more sense, but I'm not sure many among the crop of modern astrologers use it (or know how).
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I am no astrological theoretician (ha!) but


it seems to be that analysis of *one* candidate's natal chart + a predictive technique (solar/lunar returns or zodiacal releasing or whatever) or even a whole battery of such techniques, should converge to a clear 'great victory' or 'great defeat' when the time around the resolution of the election is examined. (fwiw this is exactly what "Ellen" does in her analysis *in January 2016*, in the Skyscript Forum - link in my post above), at least when traditional astrology is concerned where such a great destiny would be 'predetermined'.

After all if becoming 'king' (or 'queen') is shown as a distinct potential in the natal chart, and the predictive techniques show 'becoming king' then it should be safe to venture a prediction just from the natal chart.

I get the idea that to judge a contest, you ideally want both contestants' birth charts and whoever ends up with the most 'powerful' chart wins. This is a good way if you have both charts. But adopting this approach as 'the way' means that when we *don't* have both charts, we are more or less helpless and might as well go back to flipping coins. (Minderwiz explains eloquently above how the lack of a good birthtime for Hillary eliminates the possibility of accurate prediction)

But if someone is born to be President of the USA ('king' in ancient terminology), and you can't see it in his or her natal chart, then that means that predicting concrete events from natal charts is close to useless. If such a life changing event can't be predicted, then what *can* be predicted from a natal chart?

From what I can make out, we do have *Trump's* birthdata with an AA Rodden rating. Why can't we predict he'd win a great victory in a precise year?

Thought Experiment Time: When Trump was born, his dad calls you, the astrologer, in to look at his newborn's chart. In ancient style he pays you enough to pore over his son's chart for a few weeks or months and come back with a *detailed* reading.

Do you have the chops to see that "In his seventieth year he'll become President of the USA/ or at least 'the most powerful man in the world' after a bruising contest with a female adversary?"

If this can't be done with natal astrology, i.e, such a great victory, or alternatively 'suffers a crushing defeat' as a distinct event in that time frame, can't be foreseen, then what *can* be predicted from a natal chart ? (of course this assumes the traditional mindset, modern astrologers can hide behind 'free will', 'you choose your destiny' etc)

(end thought experiment)
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Got !ore information you might try:

http://theastrologypodcast.com/2016/...h-data-issues/

http://theastrologypodcast.com/2016/...ime-revisited/


With two candidates who have come through not only successful careers but a system of primary elections and a Convention. One would expect strong natal charts and good predictions for 2016 for both of them. So what would be good is if we see with one that 2016 is towards the end of a very good period and with the other that 2016 is near the beginning of a very good period.

If we have a doubtful chart for one of them it might be very difficult to identify such s a trend. As it might come down to small differences between very good predictions, making a choice in such circumstances might be very risky, especially to one's reputation.


and to seeZR in action, together with other methods used with accurate birth data you could try:

http://theastrologypodcast.com/2012/...tial-election/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanMenon View Post

After all if becoming 'king' (or 'queen') is shown as a distinct potential in the natal chart, and the predictive techniques show 'becoming king' then it should be safe to venture a prediction just from the natal chart.
I don't think so at all. The signs of one becoming a king could as well mean becoming a CEO or a school principal. Trump already is the head of a large empire, more or less real, so the signs in his natal have played out. Without a transitional chart, e.g. solar return or lunar for the exact month plus progressions and especially directions for events, those natal signs wouldn't mean a thing. He is already "a king" as in our world today true kings are money kings. With "queens" it will be even trickier. Astrology has to adapt to times and we live in times when being a trophy wife will indeed make a "queen" in a modern way. But also a reality star, an Instagram darling with millions of followers, a Hollywood star, etc. A girl can have the signs in the natal but there is no way, if at the moment of her running for office she is already famous, we can distinguish if those natal signs referred solely to her social status as it is or to her future presidency. In the past it was way simpler because one couldn't be any of those. One could be king only under certain circumstances. One could be an aristocrat but to be a king would take much more than that. One could be a general but it also required certain background, etc. I'm talking about Lily's time. As world changed, it became much more difficult to guess how natal signs will play out as today's kings and queens come under many categories.

To me a horary would do the job. Will Clinton (or Will Trump) be the next USA president? It should have answered the question clearly. May be someone asked, I have to go look websites.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia View Post
To me a horary would do the job. Will Clinton (or Will Trump) be the next USA president? It should have answered the question clearly. May be someone asked, I have to go look websites.
Horary require an interest on the part of the querent, not just ide curiosity. If Clinton or Trump had asked their Astrologer, they should have got an answer. If I asked, I would get something but my interest level (in the sense of a real investment in the outcome is low.

It could be claimed that each and every US Astrologer has an interest (certainly more than me) but that might mean, on a very conservative estimate) 1,000 or so charts, all cast fo the same question. Do you really think all those charts would give the same answer?

Repeated asking of the same question tends to quickly degenerate into random answers.

Each election you will get somebody who gets it right but for the method to be good, it has to work repeatedly. I wonder if any Astrologer has researched say 20 to 25 elections and identified any characteristics that repeat.
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It's taken a week to both recover and to realign my head to what is really going on with this USA election. I have several comments to make.

** The U.S. chart. I use Ronald W. Howland's for 10:55 AM LAT, July 4, 1776 Philadelphia. Howell wrote a book, "American Histrology", which is based on the existing records, notes and letters relating to that day that noted the meeting agenda, debate, and resolutions in order. The time cited is one based on written records that are pieced together to approach the likely time with reasonable certainty. Howland's book has over 600 charts-dates where transits correlate with the 10:55 AM chart. It is an impressive scholarly work.

** Birth times of the candidates. TRUMPS birth time seems reasonable, events correlate well with the natal chart and derived charts. CLINTONS birth time is up for questioning as there are several. While we could do three sets of charts, the fact that there are three charts makes each of them questionable.

** I used to employ Lunar Returns for a candidate based on each state capitol. They worked very well -- up until the late 1980's. Then they stopped working. Why? The whole primary and convention picture changed. Primaries became bunched up, became heavily influenced by TV coverage and advertisements. There was no local public response of people in each state. The conventions became 'managed' differently. Lunar Returns which portray the public's response to a candidate became influenced by public media and advertising.

** For the recent election, I did not have a Clinton chart that felt right. While the charts cast showed good features, the overall charts (for each of three times) seemed to be not conclusive. In short, I was confused as the lack of overlapping factors and acute factors (planets at angles and in aspect).

** I was very anti-Trump and felt I was not at all objective. So, I didn't do a chart for Trump. So, I made no prediction other than that Clinton seemed happy on election day.

So, I was a basic no-show for prediction other than that one statement several weeks ago that Clinton looked happy on election day, but the chart was not conclusive in terms of claiming a life-change.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
Horary require an interest on the part of the querent, not just ide curiosity. If Clinton or Trump had asked their Astrologer, they should have got an answer. If I asked, I would get something but my interest level (in the sense of a real investment in the outcome is low.

It could be claimed that each and every US Astrologer has an interest (certainly more than me) but that might mean, on a very conservative estimate) 1,000 or so charts, all cast fo the same question. Do you really think all those charts would give the same answer?
You're right, they couldn't all produce the same answer. I have no idea then. I wouldn't rely heavily on transitional charts for the reasons I stated above. May be if the rule of the 3 confirmations shows up in at least 3 charts... may be I'd trust them. Otherwise, not.
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RohanMenon  RohanMenon is offline
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@Ronia I *specifically* said


(just before the bit you quoted and reacted to)

"it seems to be that analysis of *one* candidate's natal chart + a predictive technique (solar/lunar returns or zodiacal releasing or whatever) or even a whole battery of such techniques, should converge to a clear 'great victory' or 'great defeat' when the time around the resolution of the election is examined. (fwiw this is exactly what "Ellen" does in her analysis *in January 2016*, in the Skyscript Forum - link in my post above), at least when traditional astrology is concerned where such a great destiny would be 'predetermined'.
"

Note the "+ a predictive technique (solar/lunar returns or zodiacal releasing or whatever" . No one (least of all me) asked for a natal chart *only* reading, without using whatever predictive techniques one is familiar with (including solar returns)

Anyway the point is that by a factor of 10 to 1, professional astrologers, even very famous ones, used all these techniques and still predicted a Hillary victory. Which means, at best, they let their political wishes get in the way of a clear reading, and at worst, none of this stuff actually works for real life situations. (my thoughts incline to the former possibility)

Minderwiz's post has some interesting points (especially in the provided podcast links) which I'll respond to later - just got back from a long and tiring trip - , Just setting the record straight in this post.
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