Bâtons in English?

jmd

I personally find it heartening to see that there seems to be an increased desire to stick to those words that appear to cross over towards the latinate root of common European appelations...

Though I have for a long time also used 'Coins' for 'Deniers', I do not see that this is ongoingly necessary - what is of course also lost in the modernisation is the alphabetic suit order (B - C - D - E) easily otherwise retained.

As to a pole, though it too is a long Baton, I don't think it quite captures the meaning

Major Tom

jmd said:
Though I have for a long time also used 'Coins' for 'Deniers', I do not see that this is ongoingly necessary - what is of course also lost in the modernisation is the alphabetic suit order (B - C - D - E) easily otherwise retained.

Ahhh - I begin to see.

So - nonetheless anglicised:

Batons
Cups
Deniers
Epees

An Epee is a type of sword...

Rusty Neon

Major Tom said:
Batons
Cups
Deniers
Epees

To complete the A to F sequence:

A = Atouts (Trumps)

F = Le Fou

** Edited to mention: Le Fou is a major arcanum but not a trump.

ihcoyc

Re: This is interesting ...

Rusty Neon said:
I guess I've been lucky to have a bilingual English-French keyboard all this time. In fact, I've never heard about HTML codes for international accent marks until today.

I've often þought þæt English needed a few more letters ---- we ought to use Þ instead of 'th', and we need Æ to represent þe sound of 'a' as in cæt and bæþ. When I'm writing a note to myself, I often use þe þorn character. Still, hæving an internætional keyboard would make it a lot easier. English hæs twenty-six consonants ænd anywhere from twelve to twenty separate vowels and diphþongs, depending on dialect. Þe twenty-six letters of þe Lætin ælphabet do not cover all þe bases here.

I had never noticed that the sequence of initial letters in French for þe trumps and suits made A, B, C, D, E. That is interesting, although in Italian it would be A, B, C, D, S, which breaks the sequence.

Diana

Re: Re: This is interesting ...

ihcoyc said:
I had never noticed that the sequence of initial letters in French for þe trumps and suits made A, B, C, D, E. That is interesting, although in Italian it would be A, B, C, D, S, which breaks the sequence.

.... which is one more sign that the Tarot is of French origin and not of Italian origin, whatever the Historians would like to make us think.

ihcoyc

Major Tom said:
Ahhh - I begin to see.

So - nonetheless anglicised:

Batons
Cups
Deniers
Epees

An Epee is a type of sword...

Fencers in English use épées as well; an epee is between the foil and the sabre in weight, although it usually resembles the foil more than the sabre. Epees are also used in musketeer and pirate movies when a rapier or cutlass would be more appropriate.

FWIW, denier comes from Latin denarius; in English the word has been most directly domesticated as "dinar."

kwaw

Re: Re: Re: This is interesting ...

Diana said:
.... which is one more sign that the Tarot is of French origin and not of Italian origin, whatever the Historians would like to make us think.

Though I agree that a French origin remains possible, the alphabetic sequence is interesting but I fail to see how it is evidence of a french origin.

When did the name fou, folle, fous first appear, is it older than Mat or Matto? [It is called 'Matto' in the late 15th century Steele sermon, any reference prior to that in it being called 'Fou' or one of its variants?]. It is called fou or fous in some 17th and 18th century French decks, a bit late to claim 'origins'. Also in the Paris the card is numbered XXII, thus clearly marking it as part of the XXII emblematic figures and not viewed as seperate from them [therefore coming under 'A' [if they were called Atout at the time] and not 'f', also the sword deck is called sabres , not epees [e].

Also at a similar period of time [early 1700's] but in totally different geographic region, in the Piedmontesse it is numbered 0 and so is numbered among the 22 figures and so is not seperate from them. So the statement that the fool/madman is not to be considered as part of the 22 Atu needs to be qualified as to which decks and when/why it is not to be considered among the 22 atu. Though re-reading your post I see you say it is part of the 22 arcana but is not a 'trump', so the distinction is one of game play, in which case the 21 cards would be call 'trumps' [T] and not Atu[A]? Or does the name 'atout' only refer to 'trumps'?
When was the name of Atu [atout] used to distinguish the 22 [or 21] first used?

As I say the alphabetic sequence is interesting, and may be evidence of the structure being adapted at some point to reflect an alphabetic sequence, but I am not aware of any evidence to suggest that it originated with such. Perhaps it may be considered as evidence of the Tarot structure being connected by some French cardmakers with the alphabetic sequence [and possibly symbolism]? In which decks does this appear to be the case, when and where did they originate? Were the major arcana called 'Atu' [or one of its variants] at the time?

Kwaw

ihcoyc

Re: Re: Re: Re: This is interesting ...

kwaw said:
Were the major arcana called 'Atu' [or one of its variants] at the time?

My understanding is that a trump card was called atout because it could be played on any card (à tout) in the game of tarot.

Shalott

Mkay...I do definitely see the lack of teaching foreign languages properly as a flaw in the American (as I don't know if or how it's done in England or Canada or Australia) edu-ma-cation system, which means that ppl like me are at a disadvantage. I applaud those who have learned a foreign language fluently, especially considering that they probably would have had to pursue it on their own at some point. BUT I have a few immediate issues:
1) If a Bâton isn't a baton, what is it? If a Denier isn't money in some form, what is it? Is a Epee a sword and a Coupe a cup?
2)If we all agree to type the French, this is fine to an extent, but if I ever meet any of you in person, I don't want to be laughed at for butchering the pronunciations! (I try and have a rough idea but I'm sure it's not perfect!)
3) We have a lot of ppl here who have chosen to stick with English language decks, and maybe part of the reason is the language, so when we're participating in the Reading Exchange, and somebody doesn't know what the flamin' hootie hoo a D'Espees or a Deniers is, shouldn't we translate? So, if what has been transmogrified to English isn't correct, should we figure out what it is? I mean, I think we risk making the Marseille ppl a little bit cliquey, at the very least keep the decks seeming intimidating. Not only the reading exchange board, where ppl are always free to ask or hang out in Marseille and learn, but in my case the idea of going pro seems closer all the time, being in America I would probably have to translate for clients.

Basically, for Americans at least, there will always be instances where some translation will be needed. (Until the education system gets restructured.) Personally, I'd rather get to the bottom of what indeed is the best possible translation.

Rusty Neon

Shalott ... In English-language texts relating to tarot, the French-language Tarot de Marseille suit name Bâton has been rendered into English in various ways: Batons, Wands, Clubs, Staves. Other possibilities are Rods [my preference after Batons] and Sticks. In the end, what term to use in English is up to the individual ATF'er.

Out of curiousity, I looked up the English term 'baton' in The Canadian Oxford Dictionary to find out its etymology:

[French bâton, baston, ultimately from the Late Latin bastum stick]

Hmm, but the Petit Robert French/French dictionary indicates that 'bâton' comes from Low Latin 'bastum', from 'bastere' "to carry".

Before the specific definitions for 'bâton', the Petit Robert gives the basic meaning of 'bâton' as: "a long piece of round wood that one can hold in one's hand and that can be put to different uses".
I would translate Deniers as Coins. However, that said, Deniers has also been rendered into English as Deniers or Money (e.g., Queen of Deniers, or Queen of Money). Personally, I find Money a very unelegant rendition into English.
As for Coupes and Épées, I would translate them as Cups and Swords which is what those French words unambiguously signify in English, without loss of nuance. Those are perfectly good traditional tarot equivalents in English.
A question for those who are using 10 de Baton(s) as the English rendition. Are you pronouncing the 10 as Dix [phonetic 'Dees'] or as Ten?

Bâtons in English?

jmd

Major Tom

Rusty Neon

ihcoyc

Diana

ihcoyc

kwaw

ihcoyc

Shalott

Rusty Neon