le pendu
jmd said:Before moving on to similarities and details with the Atouts, let's look closely at those Kings and Pages, for they show, to my mind at any rate, why it can be so important to have access to early images.
I agree. I think we're fooling ourselves if we think that one deck, or even one family of decks, has retained all the iconography of what earlier decks *might* have displayed. For me, I started with the Noblet, Dodal and Conver, then brought in the Vieville, then more and more decks as I found that there seemed to be little "bits and pieces" scattered throughout them.
Now granted, we're talking about a hypothetical, clearer design. Maybe the Noblet, or the Conver, or the Dodal really is very close to the "earliest TdM design".
But what I find I like things from different decks. Some of them may not be historically accurate, other might... but I do find that I have my preferences.
Take the King of Cups for instance. You point out the "door" or "lid", which is never really clear when you look at the Dodal or the Conver... but looking at the Noblet and the Heri, it's clearly a broach. The Vieville backs that up. Looking at the design of it though, it seems that there should be a smaller circle within the larger. I can't tell if it is there on the Noblet or not, but it is certainly there on the Heri. In this case.. this little scan of this one remaining deck (that I know of) that is similar to the Noblet sheds a little light on what is depicted.
But notice the floor patterns, and the patterns on the throne as well. What's going on here? Every card is different. On the floor, Noblet and Heri indicate some type of square tiles. Conver and Dodal.. well.. they're kind of a mess aren't they? Are those floorboards? Benois also thinks there's a pattern, but his are diamond shaped rather than square!
And what of the pattern on the throne? Here, Heri says "It's a diamond pattern", and everyone else seems to hint at it. Does Heri actually have the closest pattern to an older/lost style? Or is he just making it up?
Notice also the "skull cap" on the Heri and Noblet.. the round parts hanging over his ear. Very similar. Dodal and Benois have it too, but smaller on one side. Conver has it only on one side.
What is that "tail" sticking out on the right of the card? To me, I'd guess it is the tassel on a pillow. All of the cards indicate that it should be there, but the Benois only barely still shows it, and if you didn't know about it from the others, it might be lost. It might be something else as well.. but I'm guessing a pillow.
Look at the feet. Here's another difference, and one that I personally find possibly important. Why do the Dodal and Conver have the foot pointing sideways rather than downwards?
Oh I WISH we had color scans of the Heri!!!
jmd said:The Valets similarly shows how clothing details can become lost with time: in this case, the 'pedal-pusher' long-shorts-&-socks with tie become long-johns in the newer decks, and similarly the upper-arm coverings, distinct to the lower-arm ones in the earlier Noblet and Heri designs become rather 'bland' (in comparison) in the 'later' decks of Dodal, Benois and Conver.
Where the Heri is especially useful, however, is also in seeing that the Noblet was not an exceptional singularity, but rather a style that must have had its impact on the design that comes later and further standardises the Marseille-type.
A deck that is well worth looking at in more detail
Indeed.
Looking at the Valet, I think we see somewhere the Noblet missed something.. and that's the brim of the hat. All of the others have the brim on the right side of the sword as well. It's not surprising that Heri would have "corrected" that if he had known, but it's also possible.. and this is a guess, but one that has important ramifications... that Heri was working from a Source similar to the Noblet source... but one that either had some of the iconography in tact that is lost in the Noblet, or he was perhaps a better copiest.
I also really like the cape on the Heri. On the Noblet, it seems too pointy, and on the Conver, Benois and Dodal, it seems confused. Heri's just flows right to, to my eye.
The ties at the knees of the Heri and Noblet.. well, ya gotta love em. What a dashing figure this Valet of Swords is!
Notice the top of the sword sheath? It's pretty clear in the Noblet, Benois, and Heri, but confused in the Dodal. Conver probably has it clearly, but this version isn't colored to show it. Have I mentioned how sloppy Dodal is lately?
Examining the Valet's hair really shows relationships. Heri and Noblet agree. Benois and Dodal agree. Conver is different.
I find the collar interesting. Noblet, Benois and Heri don't have any buttons on the color. Dodal has one, kind of centered. Conver has two.
Also the buttons on the jacket differ. Dodal, Conver and Benois all have many buttons running up the center, but Benois has a whole, trimmed center panel. Noblet probably has a similar panel, I can't tell for the Heri. Noblet has only three buttons.
So just looking at these two cards, I can see things by examining them as a group which might suggest an earlier model, (or might not! .. but), I think it does. All in all, the differences are TINY.. and the "gist" of the card has remained extremely consistent.