"The direct descendant" of the Thoth?

Aeon418

These are NOT paths that someone has made up out of thin air but constitute all the paths which are implied but never shown in their entirety. There are exactly 16 such paths and there will always be 16 *hidden paths* to any tree presenting us with 10 sephiroth and 22 paths.

Just out of curiosity, but what relevance do these 'hidden paths' have to anyone below the grade of Geburah 6=5 A.'.A.'. (or equivalent)?
 

ravenest

One has to be a 13 = -2 (Snootius Adeptus) to see any relevance in these 'secret' paths.

Otherwise it will just look like someone decided to draw in any possible path one could .

... cant wait to see which newly created Hebrew letters are allocated to them .

.... or we end up with a lot of ' bis. ' .
 

Richard

I'm 14 = -3, and I don't see any relevance.
 

earthair

Hidden paths are the ones not there that you make up yourself (like the 'father letters' ;) )

But the whole concept of the Kabbalistic ToL is made up! I personally can't see the problem with someone taking something which is made up and then making up some more stuff? })
 

earthair

Associating anything with Aleister Crowley is one of the most toxic things you can do in retail, even in the metaphysical/occult communities. It wouldn't have been fair for us to distance ourselves from Crowley and his work, as it is quite filial to him and owes a great deal both to him and the people of The Golden Dawn he was inspired by. Just as Crowley was progressively building on the knowledge that had been gathered up until his time, m1thr0s and I built on the knowledge that had been gathered up until our time. His detractors in London are all dead now, and what is left is a document that has met with someone willing to pick up where he left off. This is how it has always been done, we are leaving messages for a future voice who may not even be born yet. As collectors or serious occultists you will all do your job by propagating it or criticizing it. You will do so on its own level however, if you are to assail it effectively at all. There are few familiar enough with Crowley's larger body of work or the Thoth and its origins to even hold a rational discussion about it. Until that happens whining is just whining, and it is a sound we're both quite used to in other regards such as the Abrahadabra grid proofs or whatever other changes people fear.


Not that there's anything wrong with money or tarot publishers making money, but I have to wonder if you're aware of how one goes about making money at all, since day trading would be better pay than $69 per year pay it amounts to. I wouldn't call that a quick buck or even very business like, I'd call it a hobby since each painting took a minimum of 10 hours to complete, at student artist rates per card that' $24,960. If every pack sells that's a profit of $9000 not enough to pay a decent artist or even cover the cost of my classical atelier training. It's just enough to reprint the pack if we choose to go through the trouble at all. That's even before we take into considering time put in by m1thr0s himself which met or exceeded my own part and reflects a history of over 45 years of knowledge and resource gathering as a professional occultist. I would like to see The Abrahadabra Institute make a lot of money, because more money means better equipment and an actual laboratory which would be quite helpful, but when given the choice between urgent research and merely making money it is all too easy to get lost in making money where the work suffers and is forgotten about.

If I wanted to *sell* the deck to sell it for its own sake, history has shown it is much more profitable to claim it was received through space aliens, angels or some ancient god from beyond the stars or other such fantasies. People are not afraid of that.

Actually I think the quality of your artwork alone would make this deck appeal to a lot of people who are currently put off by the prospect of trying to work out all the symbols around the edges. Have you considered releasing 2 versions of the deck, 1) as it is... and also 2) an introductory version without the 4 corner boxes?
If we compare Thoth to MAT then it strikes me that many people can and do read well with Thoth without knowing half of what's going on, and the same could work for your deck, if you're interested in trying to make this a bit more profitable, (which I guess you're not, being a labour of love as you say?)
 

Zephyros

As collectors or serious occultists you will all do your job by propagating it or criticizing it. You will do so on its own level however, if you are to assail it effectively at all. There are few familiar enough with Crowley's larger body of work or the Thoth and its origins to even hold a rational discussion about it. Until that happens whining is just whining, and it is a sound we're both quite used to in other regards such as the Abrahadabra grid proofs or whatever other changes people fear.

I must ask, who is the target audience of your deck? It would seem that people who study esoteric Tarot, the Thoth in particular, some of whom have done practical work at varying stages, Thelemites, budding magicians... in other words the members of a Thoth Tarot forum, would be the people who would appreciate and use your deck. But according to what you're saying here, there is no one alive who could even understand it. You must understand why that attitude causes some friction.

Why don't you tell us a bit about your deck and its aims?
 

bonebeach

I'm kind of enjoying the catfighting here and it's making me more interested in the deck, honestly. I think earthair and Zephyros have excellent points both.

I'm a writer, and I absolutely get the urge to be many things at once, to display your ideas in all their dazzling complexity. I think this deck might be trying to be a few too many things at once, though.

I was about to buy it last night, because I like the art, I like the concept, I like the very reasonable price, and I think occultist infighting is practically a time honored tradition, so I'm into the MAT deck by now. But then I tried to read the on line book...and it's not that I don't understand. It's just that there's so...much...stuff.

Like, okay. As a first time novelist, in traditional publishing? Your novel MUST be about 80K words. Everyone always fights that. Everyone always wants to defend their ideas and their knowledge, and to do *more*. And it's in the nature of the artist to be ambitious in that sense, absolutely. That's fantastic. But in terms of selling a book, not just for profit, but just so that it's accessible to more people, who have no reason to trust an unknown author, it helps to trim. Editing down is irritating and time consuming for the writer and a boon for the reader. The MAT is a very ambitious project, and that's admirable and exciting. I just think it might benefit from being reigned in a little.

Who am I kidding, though? I'm going to cave and buy it by the end of the week. :) I am part of the filthy unwashed masses re: the Thoth, though. I use several reference books, but ultimately I'm not too hung up on the decans or whatnot. So I *love* the Thoth, but I'm the kind of person most of this subforum rolls their eyes at.
 

Zephyros

Moderator Note:

While discussions in Thoth are generally animated, as should be, please respect other members and viewpoints. People don't always agree, but that doesn't mean we can't all get along. One post was removed, let's all try to diffuse things and have a nice discussion.

Thanks for your cooperation,

Zephyros
 

ravenest

But the whole concept of the Kabbalistic ToL is made up! I personally can't see the problem with someone taking something which is made up and then making up some more stuff? })

Well, on that level, I guess one would not see a problem.

Do you realise that there are 22 letters in Hebrew and each one is attributed to the 22 paths on the Tree of Life ?

So, back to what I was hinting at .... are you going to 'make up' new Hebrew letters , allocate a letter to more than one path , or just make up some other paths and when the question of what letter corresponds with it declare ; "Doesn't matter. " ?
 

ravenest

I must ask, who is the target audience of your deck? It would seem that people who study esoteric Tarot, the Thoth in particular, some of whom have done practical work at varying stages, Thelemites, budding magicians... in other words the members of a Thoth Tarot forum, would be the people who would appreciate and use your deck. But according to what you're saying here, there is no one alive who could even understand it. You must understand why that attitude causes some friction.

Ah yes, but this comes from a source 'very familiar with Crowley's work from within the OTO' .

.... not sure what that means , but it sounds good . ;)