New Age Thoth Clones: Split off from Crowley Biographies

Lillie

Scion said:
Actually, I don't think the RWS-clone plague can hit the Thoth for one simple reason: the Thoth is inherently explicit in ways that the Waite-Smith is veiled.

I know I have been joking on this thread, but I am serious too.
I believe that the plague of Thoth clones and Crowley for the masses could happen.
I have made exaggerated and (hopefully) amusing examples of how it might be done and the point of it is the opposite of what Scion says above.

The attack of the Thoth clones would consist of veiling the Thothy goodness in various inane ways. All under the guise of 'making it easier to understand'.

The thoth has a notorious reputation for being 'difficult', for needing loads of learning and study and all that.
I've banged on often enough about that and about how it isn't as difficult or impenetrable as people think, but still so many people would like to get into the Thoth but say that it is 'too difficult', or they 'haven't studied enough yet'.

There is very little that can be added to the Thoth, the Liber T added the symbolism of the decans, and maybe there is other stuff, but on the whole it is (as has been said) a very complete and explicit system.

However, there is a hell of a lot that can be taken away.
That's where I see it going, (if it ever happens).

Imagine Arrien's book, then imagine a deck done by someone who has learned the Thoth using Arrien's book...

Not, I must say, that it is a particularly bad book. It's a bad book as far as understanding what Crowley intended with the thoth is concerned as it seems to pick and choose the symbols it wishes to see in the cards and relates them to whatever it wants to relate them to (anything but Crowley). But on the whole it's a fairly straight forward new age 'understand yourself' type tarot book.
I had a lot of fun doing the number thingies at the back.

Anyway, my point (finally). If the attack of the Thoth clones ever happens there will be loads of decks using bits of the symbolism, taking something from here and there, putting them together to form something that is vaguely thothish, but which misses most of the point of the deck. Or decks which skim the surface of meaning and take most of the difficult stuff out.

On the whole what we would be looking at is the Thoth without Crowley.
For instance the word 'Thelema' on the Ace of Swords. Either it would be ignored (as Arrien did), absent from the clone, or reinterpreted to mean something vague and new agey such as 'if you visualise it hard enough it will come true', or perhaps something deeper like Nietzsche's 'Will to Power'.
Anything but what Crowley really meant by it.

A further thing would be if the new deck did relate the word 'Thelema' to Crowley, but went on to interpret in an incorrect manner, saying that Crowley had not meant what he meant by it, but had in fact meant something else. Something more palatable, something easier to grasp, something that more people want to hear, like it is your true will to have whatever you desire most.

This is just an example based on one thing on one card, but I hope it serves as an illustration of what I can see coming should the new age writers ever decide that the Thoth is the next big thing for revisioning.

Thoth lite.

And what a sad empty thing it will be.
 

Ross G Caldwell

Hi zan chan,

zan_chan said:
I didn't think it possible, but you've officially made that Vampyre deck (it pains just to type that spelling) seem even more vile than it did from its scans and that awful thread about it... :neutral:

Strangely enough, it is not just an affectation of modern goths to spell it "vampyre", but very old "goths", like Byron and Polidori, who spelled it that way.

The earliest vampire story to get currency in English was by John Williams Polidori, and titled "The Vampyre : A Tale", and published in 1819.
 

Pagan X

Oh, here are the snarky intellectuals! Good, I was looking for you...watching the Vampyres deck seduce women online makes me think its very Crowley. In that Barnum kind of way.All the way to the bank. That GREEN card is so very GREEN in its GREENISHNESS because its also being sold as a print, "Absinthia", which is GREEN. And illustrations from the deck will be used for an upcoming book on how to draw Vampyres. I gotta applaud an artist who can get triple pay for a piece of work. Golden Dawn decks are mutiplying; there's no reason the Thoth can't be cherrypicked and recombined into themed New Age mashups. Though the Vampyres deck really looks like "I picked a bunch of my existing works and then used the book to convince you they have these meanings" and one of the books chosen as the organizing principle is the Book of Thoth. Somehow this all seems more true to the wicked spirit of Thelema than an academically respectul/artistically integral treatment..."tarot designer artist and publisher as vampire"
 

Grigori

Pagan X said:
Somehow this all seems more true to the wicked spirit of Thelema than an academically respectul/artistically integral treatment..."tarot designer artist and publisher as vampire"

I'm kind of confused as to your point paganX, could you explain a bit more please? :)
 

Pagan X

Hmm, let me think...

Well, it's about layers of meaning, I suppose, or impact or context.
As an example: the thread is about clones of the Thoth deck on a parallel with the clones of the RWS deck. Clones of the RWS that are bereft of intellectual background, are disparaged, I.e, those that use elements of the RWS designs without reference to or honoring of the structure and catalog of meanings documented by Waite. (Waite, in playing the Occultist Mystery Game of revealing without revealing abets this somewhat.) Students of the Thoth don't want to see that happen to the Thoth. It's pointed out that it has happened to the Thoth, by the same New Age Marketing Machine that has so used the RWS.
On another layer, I see the the deck so identified (Vampyre) deck having been created, marketed, and functioning in a very...hmm..Crowleyesqe way. Marketing via seduction; successfully extracting resources from others; pretending to social status; living on a good story; perceiving others desires and letting them con themselves.

On this layer--as a deck--it embodies certain Thelemic principles. It demonstrates the power of identifying and taking advantage of basic needs. The power of cheese and kitsch is a magical power!

The best con man leaves happy victims.

Actually, as a digression, a fair number of New Age gurus preach love and light but are personally quite unprincipled and self-centered people. Osho and Sylvia Browne, for example. Crowley didn't preach love and light. He wasn't a hypocrite.

I don't know if I can explain it any better than that.
 

Lillie

How can you tell that vampire deck is Thoth based?

I mean, I had a glance at the scans of the majors and I can't say that I saw anything particularly Thoth like in it.

It just looked like generic, nicely drawn vampires

Justice seems to 11 as well, or at least it was in that position in the cards I looked at. There were no titles on the pictures I saw, but it came after the Wheel.

I know, I could read all 5000 pages of that thread, but I can't be bothered.
So, tell me, what did I miss?
How is it Thoth like?
 

Ross G Caldwell

Hi Pagan X,

Pagan X said:
Oh, here are the snarky intellectuals! Good, I was looking for you...

I read that as directed at me (since it was the next post after mine - no offense taken, btw), but I didn't intend to sound snarky, and I really can't find snark in the post.

It was intended to correct zan chan's impression that the spelling "vampyre" is a modern goth affectation - which is a reasonable assumption, until you know how old it really is. (That said, it could be that the designer of the Vampyre Tarot didn't know this, and it IS an affectation in this case, but coincidentally has legitimate historical antecedents.)

As to your other points, what you are describing seems more LaVey-esque ("satanic") behavior, the wish to gain power over others for self-aggrandizing purposes - sex, money, fame. Crowley himself was fairly incompetent at marketing his "brand"; he had the ability to get other people to pay for him for the last 35 years of his life, but with rare occasions of luxury, he barely made it past subsistence for most of this time.

I'd say it is not necessarily "Thelemic" to behave as a LaVey-esque satanist, unless that is your will. Gaining power over others, through "fascination" or force, is not an integral aim of the philosophy of Thelema, nor the magical programme of the AA. Obviously, it may be that you need to gain these powers to test yourself, or convince yourself, that the system works, and you really have gained them (personally, I had to do this), but usually you'll just do what you have to with them and then outgrow them, while you pursue the true Great Work.

(P.S. - it is not even necessarily thelemic to do "magick" at all, or seek to perform the Great Work - "the Law is for all". Many people are just natural thelemites, and go about their lives quite happily doing their wills. Magick might seem ridiculous to them: a crutch for weak minds at best, a dangerous delusion at worst.)
 

Le Fanu

Don't worry, Ross. I was being snarky. It was me!..;))

Lillie said:
I mean, I had a glance at the scans of the majors and I can't say that I saw anything particularly Thoth like in it.

How is it Thoth like?
The Majors are - well - like Majors of any system really. Just typical 21st Century Majors. Perhaps only the High Priestess's arrows of Artemis is - taking out the Thoth - unusual for a HP card. So there may be a Thoth reference there. Also, the scans I had seen on-line didn't look particularly anything. It was only when I had the deck in my hand that I noticed.

To be honest, it is in the book where I most sense it, though as others have pointed out it is more Golden Dawn than Thoth except most typical RWS-based decks don't quite opt for those meanings, of satiety, debauch, pleasure..

But in the minors, you get a vague sense that this is what is being referred to. The 2 of Wands/Sceptres is definitely Dominion; Butch, muscled tattoed warrior grasping spear with mighty force. That's not typical RWS. 10 of Grails/Cups definitely shows a woman Satiated (not a rainbow), Nine of Knives/Swords shows blood running down the back wall. 4 of Skulls/Disks shows an austere, regimented fortess with high walls (oh and sultry vampyre and "Powerful" sentry). Just little things like this which I don't think are accidental. There are others...
 

Ross G Caldwell

Le Fanu said:
Don't worry, Ross. I was being snarky. It was me!..;))

Ah, I see - thanks for the clarification!

I actually don't know this deck - I don't even have Liber T - I can't see a purpose for getting anything "cloned", when you can get the real thing, in multiple sizes.

Perhaps the best, or most doctrinally correct, GD Tarot is "The Hermetic Tarot", by Godfrey Dowson. Except, it is not colored, and is a little small for all the detail it has.
 

Le Fanu

Ross G Caldwell said:
Perhaps the best, or most doctrinally correct, GD Tarot is "The Hermetic Tarot", by Godfrey Dowson. Except, it is not colored, and is a little small for all the detail it has.
Oh and it's really, really scarey :D. The Thoth doesn't have the Dowson "sinister factor". I rather like it. It is a deck I keep meaning to use more, but - like you, Ross - I find that I can happily check out and buy and enjoy looking at other Thoth-clones, but the original is so stunning to look at, I just always end up coming back to the Thoth, which is the ultimate praise for any deck.

The great dichotomy of many readers who use the RWS-system is that they don't like the RWS so are constantly sent off in all directions looking for something which is RWS but which isn't the RWS.

With the Thoth, the system and the way it looks is a perfect marriage.