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So that you know, I watched the video. And most of Paul Hughes-Barlow's other videos. I also have both of his books. You must have figured out by now: I quite like the guy with his dry style. But that doesn't mean that I always agree with him, neither on Tarot nor on the Kabbalah.

Ravenest has provided some excellent insights into how the spiritual world is in fact one with earthly everyday existence. It is (on the more advanced levels) not something you only connect to while visiting an esoteric market, much like many a Christian imagines that simply going to church will bring them closer to God.

Anyway, Paul does have a point in reminding us that the Kabbalah (as well Astrology, the Tarot, what have you...) is a model of an underlying metaphysical reality and must not be mistaken for the latter per se (which in the final analysis defies description, as the ancient texts continuously emphasize). They are filters that alloy us to highlight certain details while they tend to blur others. They all have their value as long as their being applied properly, i.e. in ways that support and don't hinder the comprehension of truth. Yet they all have their limits, thus they can become limitations themselves to the spiritual seeker at certain stages.

We may compare this to the quantum physicist's different, seemingly exclusive models of the atom with its electron shells that are being freely employed according to the particular task at hand, as each of them holds true only in a certain kind of context, whereas the "real" structure of the atom remains hidden.

Likewise, in metaphysical terms, to understand the living reality behind the abstract symbolism is what is meant by initiation and enlightenment.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
The point is not linguistic but philosophical. The Cartesian dualism is purely a philosophical term, not literary metaphor.

Before the Cartesian dualism, of course there have been various schools talking about Mind and Body problems, but it was he, the French philosopher Rene Descartes, who first laid down the Mind and Body dualism with full theoretical discourse, hence the name "Cartesian Dualism". Read his Meditations on First Philosophy.

You cannot use Cartesian dualism to imply all dualisms under the sun, that is not correct.
And that is why I am not doing it. But it is a significant turning point, as were certain events in the church, that were not exactly that turning point either. Again, it is all outlined in the book and chapter I referenced .

Yes, I am using somewhat 'lazy language', for reasons of simplicity and brevity, regardless the point still holds (the point before the diversion, that is ) .
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Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
You have not even watched his video till the end, make judgement?
Why not ? I dont watch every youtube video all the way through to make an assessment. I made one of this one quiet quickly, then other people here,, some with a long history here of communication, research, practice and high level of education and qualifications, whom I respect and acknowledge, IMO, seem to have come to the same conclusion.

This, and your propensity to seem to avoid some relevant questions asked, with claims like the above, seems , again IMO that you aren't 'getting something'. If you happen to like what the guy does, fine, it just seems he doesnt know the subject of everything he talks about - and I watched far enough of it to decide that myself.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Sternbach View Post
So that you know, I watched the video. And most of Paul Hughes-Barlow's other videos. I also have both of his books. You must have figured out by now: I quite like the guy with his dry style. But that doesn't mean that I always agree with him, neither on Tarot nor on the Kabbalah.

Ravenest has provided some excellent insights into how the spiritual world is in fact one with earthly everyday existence. It is (on the more advanced levels) not something you only connect to while visiting an esoteric market, much like many a Christian imagines that simply going to church will bring them closer to God.

Anyway, Paul does have a point in reminding us that the Kabbalah (as well Astrology, the Tarot, what have you...) is a model of an underlying metaphysical reality and must not be mistaken for the latter per se (which in the final analysis defies description, as the ancient texts continuously emphasize). They are filters that alloy us to highlight certain details while they tend to blur others. They all have their value as long as their being applied properly, i.e. in ways that support and don't hinder the comprehension of truth. Yet they all have their limits, thus they can become limitations themselves to the spiritual seeker at certain stages.

We may compare this to the quantum physicist's different, seemingly exclusive models of the atom with its electron shells that are being freely employed according to the particular task at hand, as each of them holds true only in a certain kind of context, whereas the "real" structure of the atom remains hidden.

Likewise, in metaphysical terms, to understand the living reality behind the abstract symbolism is what is meant by initiation and enlightenment.
Well put!

and this : "The map is not the territory"

and this: (one of the 4 main practices of 'psychological good health') " Review the internal map."

Which is the ongoing process of comparing and developing the 'map' to the 'territory'.

And understanding the difference between the 'map of creative process' and the 'map of the human Psyche' and the map of .... 'mapping' , here (in Australian traditional society) recognises this, its a kalidascope of interconnected spider webs ... much in the same way the various Egyptian 'pantheons' , although seeming, on the surface, to 'contradict' one another, can be seen to describe (maps of) various dynamics within the different fields of human experience / dynamics :

Hermopolitan Ogdoad - Formation

Solar Triad - Fluctuation

Memphite Triad - Articulation

Esna Triad - Construction

Heliopolitan Ennead - Augmentation

Funerary Quarternary - Sublimation

Dendra Triad - Proliferation

(after Clark) -

It would be rather pointless to argue for 'God' as the creator Knum because it said so at Esna agaisnt the 'view' that God really started everything as Atum in Heliopolis - from the deeper perspective ... which, by all indications, is one that they had (and the indigenous Australians, the oldest extant culture on the planet , still do ) .

.... so one needs the applicable map as well ....

'Dualism' (note marks) seems to insist on one answer or the other, not different views and frameworks ... eventually that leads to 'scientism' - a thing quiet a few of us have problems with .

And that is why, without an understanding of the right mindset, that comes with really understanding even the most basic level of kabbalah, you will interpret it the wrong way, and think it is applicable to everything and you would be 'trapped' within its framework ... that might be the case for some type of highly religious fundamentalist Rabbi .... or a ' you tube hermeticist' (meaning the modern propensity to 'learn; things from youtube viewing instead of original source material) but not for a Hermeticist with some comprehension.

.... map fades off to ~ here be monsters of the deep ~
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Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
And that is why I am not doing it. But it is a significant turning point, as were certain events in the church, that were not exactly that turning point either. Again, it is all outlined in the book and chapter I referenced .

Yes, I am using somewhat 'lazy language', for reasons of simplicity and brevity, regardless the point still holds (the point before the diversion, that is ) .
The Cartesian dualism is a very special type of dualism, which can only be used for Descartes' mind & body dualism. In order to arrive to the conclusion that mind exists separate from body, he had to doubt everything even his own existence, then came to proof that the fact he is doubting cannot be doubted. Therefore "Cogito ergo sum".

It is a dualism based on the critical method of philosophy, totally different from any other dualisms. Applying that term to spiritual world and real world, the old ways of thinking and new ways of thinking, just sounded wrong and addlepated.
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Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
Why not ? I dont watch every youtube video all the way through to make an assessment. I made one of this one quiet quickly, then other people here,, some with a long history here of communication, research, practice and high level of education and qualifications, whom I respect and acknowledge, IMO, seem to have come to the same conclusion.

This, and your propensity to seem to avoid some relevant questions asked, with claims like the above, seems , again IMO that you aren't 'getting something'. If you happen to like what the guy does, fine, it just seems he doesnt know the subject of everything he talks about - and I watched far enough of it to decide that myself.
Sounds like a typical case of the Baconian Idol of Tribes.

It's not my propensity to avoid some relevant questions as you try to make out, but there might various reasons why I do not reply to certain part of the post. They are,

1. I might think that reply is already in my previous posts.
2. I might feel that there is no point in replying due to the post does not interest me in any shape or form at all.
3. I might feel that I should reply only parts of the post I feel as significant, to save time.
4. I might have no time to read the rest of the post due to other things happening at the time when I am in the forum.
5. I might have no time to reply to whole part of the post due to other things happening at the time when I am in the forum.
....
....
etc etc.

I cannot add why I have not replied to certain part of the post in each and every reply I post, because I feel it is not necessary, and nobody does in most cases.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Sternbach View Post
So that you know, I watched the video. And most of Paul Hughes-Barlow's other videos. I also have both of his books. You must have figured out by now: I quite like the guy with his dry style. But that doesn't mean that I always agree with him, neither on Tarot nor on the Kabbalah.

Ravenest has provided some excellent insights into how the spiritual world is in fact one with earthly everyday existence. It is (on the more advanced levels) not something you only connect to while visiting an esoteric market, much like many a Christian imagines that simply going to church will bring them closer to God.

Anyway, Paul does have a point in reminding us that the Kabbalah (as well Astrology, the Tarot, what have you...) is a model of an underlying metaphysical reality and must not be mistaken for the latter per se (which in the final analysis defies description, as the ancient texts continuously emphasize). They are filters that alloy us to highlight certain details while they tend to blur others. They all have their value as long as their being applied properly, i.e. in ways that support and don't hinder the comprehension of truth. Yet they all have their limits, thus they can become limitations themselves to the spiritual seeker at certain stages.

We may compare this to the quantum physicist's different, seemingly exclusive models of the atom with its electron shells that are being freely employed according to the particular task at hand, as each of them holds true only in a certain kind of context, whereas the "real" structure of the atom remains hidden.

Likewise, in metaphysical terms, to understand the living reality behind the abstract symbolism is what is meant by initiation and enlightenment.
Yup, excellent post. I still feel that in order to arrive at spiritual world, one's consciousness needs to be transformed from earthy mundane mind. It is not dualism I am talking about, but change of the state of mind.

Of course not everyone going to church is more spiritual than non church goers, but being able to think and feel in spiritual way, "WITH THAT FRAME OF MIND" doing rituals, and going to temple or church is different from the mind purely engaged in mundane daily earthy life.
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Originally Posted by smw View Post
you got me there I was going to say I like the Rolling Stones too, until I clicked on the links
Don't tell me I didn't warn you
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
Sounds like a typical case of the Baconian Idol of Tribes.

It's not my propensity to avoid some relevant questions as you try to make out, but there might various reasons why I do not reply to certain part of the post. They are,

1. I might think that reply is already in my previous posts.
2. I might feel that there is no point in replying due to the post does not interest me in any shape or form at all.
3. I might feel that I should reply only parts of the post I feel as significant, to save time.
4. I might have no time to read the rest of the post due to other things happening at the time when I am in the forum.
5. I might have no time to reply to whole part of the post due to other things happening at the time when I am in the forum.
....
....
etc etc.

I cannot add why I have not replied to certain part of the post in each and every reply I post, because I feel it is not necessary, and nobody does in most cases.
The reason I mentioned the not answer certain questions thing is because you seemed to respond to more than one person with criticisms about a system you yourself said you had little knowledge of and that you were happy to listen to another (on youtube ) who appears to have little knowledge of it as well, people bought up questions related to that , you didnt answer but changed tack and then flung more criticism and said again you didnt understand the subject.

Just pointing out that it if you dont follow the conversation and Q and A systematically and logically, you may not get the knowledge you wanted ... and some people will stop communicating with you.

Which I had better here now, as this is going too OT.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foolMoon View Post
Yup, excellent post. I still feel that in order to arrive at spiritual world, one's consciousness needs to be transformed from earthy mundane mind. It is not dualism I am talking about, but change of the state of mind.
But the very use of the term "spiritual world" implies a spiritual/material dualistic mindset. With a monistic world view, it is not necessary to effect a consciousness change in order to shift from the "earthy mundane" to the spiritual, since everything is spiritual.


Quote:
Of course not everyone going to church is more spiritual than non church goers, but being able to think and feel in spiritual way, "WITH THAT FRAME OF MIND" doing rituals, and going to temple or church is different from the mind purely engaged in mundane daily earthy life.
But this is only because the average "Joe Sixpack" has been brainwashed (directly or indirectly) by that same church mentality into dualistic thinking.
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