How do people feel about altering cards?

Grizabella

tarotbear said:
One is moved to ask that if any deck bothered you (collective 'you') so much ... why bother to use it at all in the first place? Trade it, sell it, and buy something else. I mean - if you had to minorly-to-radically alter 80% of a deck to 'make it work' or to not be 'offensive' to you .... why alter the deck at all and just find one that does work in it's natural state.

I love the World Spirit but that one card just grated on me, so I changed it, but I wouldn't want to get rid of the whole deck. I don't like the Robin Wood "Lover's banana" image that much, either, but don't dislike it enough to change it. I don't know why I dislike it, though. It isn't the nudity, it's something else I can't define.

I agree, though, that if you don't like 80% of the images in a deck, get rid of it. Why bother?

manhattan9thgate

Lyric said:
I love the World Spirit but that one card just grated on me, so I changed it, but I wouldn't want to get rid of the whole deck. I don't like the Robin Wood "Lover's banana" image that much, either, but don't dislike it enough to change it. I don't know why I dislike it, though. It isn't the nudity, it's something else I can't define.

I agree, though, that if you don't like 80% of the images in a deck, get rid of it. Why bother?

That's interesting because after you told me it was the 10 of pentacles I compared the 2 cards (Devil and 10 of penatcles.)
I assumed it was the Devil card because of the 2 nudes. The guru guyin the 10 of penatcles is sitting lotus position with his feeting obscuring his genitals.

maybe you don't like card because he is surrounded by 3 very young children playing with their dog. I can see why this could bring about a feeling of revulsion, even on a subconcious level.

Deana

euripides said:
the Decameron? Well I mean the title alone should make it pretty clear what its contents are about.

What did I miss? Wasn't the Decameron some collection of stories from medieval Italy that Chaucer based his Canterbury Tales on? I mean, the Canterbury Tales were bawdy, but if there was a Canterbury Tales Tarot, I wouldn't expect porn. Or does Decameron also refer to something else that I've completely missed by living under a rock?

Deana

manhattan9thgate said:
I assumed it was the Devil card because of the 2 nudes. The guru guyin the 10 of penatcles is sitting lotus position with his feeting obscuring his genitals.

maybe you don't like card because he is surrounded by 3 very young children playing with their dog. I can see why this could bring about a feeling of revulsion, even on a subconcious level.

That's it for me. I could care less about naked people in general and the Devil card doesn't even phase me. But that guy in the Ten of Pentacles...I'm sorry, but if I left my kids with someone and came home to them playing in the yard while he "meditated" with his pants off, you can bet I'd be calling the police. I can't imagine how the artist thought this was a good idea, unless she wanted a card to warn of child predators...in which case, why the Ten of Pentacles?

euripides

Deana said:
What did I miss? Wasn't the Decameron some collection of stories from medieval Italy that Chaucer based his Canterbury Tales on? I mean, the Canterbury Tales were bawdy, but if there was a Canterbury Tales Tarot, I wouldn't expect porn. Or does Decameron also refer to something else that I've completely missed by living under a rock?

Yes, that's pretty much it, and no, you haven't been living under a rock... expecting porn is probably going too far on my part - perhaps its a bit like Catullus - a reputation far exceeding the facts. There's certainly a few eyebrow-raising moments for the more staid scholar....

perhaps its stuff like this that's given me a warped mental impression of it:
http://www.sfu.ca/~finley/decameron.html

Actually, I wonder about the ideal of the nude as representing the unencumbered human, ouside of culture or class... I'm not entirely sure that it works. I think there's other things going on there, but I'm not sure what.

Grizabella

manhattan9thgate said:
That's interesting because after you told me it was the 10 of pentacles I compared the 2 cards (Devil and 10 of penatcles.)
I assumed it was the Devil card because of the 2 nudes. The guru guyin the 10 of penatcles is sitting lotus position with his feeting obscuring his genitals.

maybe you don't like card because he is surrounded by 3 very young children playing with their dog. I can see why this could bring about a feeling of revulsion, even on a subconcious level.

Yes, it's that guy---10 of Pentacles. And the fact that he's got a knife lying beside him doesn't make it any better.

Grizabella

Deana said:
That's it for me. I could care less about naked people in general and the Devil card doesn't even phase me. But that guy in the Ten of Pentacles...I'm sorry, but if I left my kids with someone and came home to them playing in the yard while he "meditated" with his pants off, you can bet I'd be calling the police. I can't imagine how the artist thought this was a good idea, unless she wanted a card to warn of child predators...in which case, why the Ten of Pentacles?

This is almost a direct quote of what I said in another thread awhile back. (I don't mean you were quoting me, but our sentiments are just about exactly the same.) When I said it, then I got some snide come-backs about Americans and their "phobia" of nudity, but oh well-----I still can't imagine any country where it would be okay for a man naked from the waist down and with a knife to sit in a park full of kids. If there is a country like that, I don't wanna live there. And besides, who says he's meditating? There's nothing saying that in the book entry that goes with the deck.

Here's what the book says, and it actually makes me roll my eyes:

"In the ten of pentacles, we experience the satisfaction of having all our needs met. Having attained a level of security, we have good reason to relax and to celebrate the abundance of life with friends and family.

At the same time, this card speaks to the importance of creating something worth passing on to future generations. Whatever your age, start thinking about the legacy you will leave. What impact will your life have on the world?

On an even deeper level, the Ten of Pentacles offers a gateway into the essence of its suit; that the everyday world contains magic and mystery that we are often too busy to acknowledge. Honoring this magic is perhaps the most profound and valuable legacy we can leave behind."

I've refrained from inserting any comments I felt the strong urge to insert because I don't want a huge outcry of how disrespectful I am of the artists who created this deck, but I truly don't see what the artist sees in this card. I just don't understand how male nudity from the waist down fits into the vision expressed in the book. Maybe it's best I don't.

That's an interesting thought about maybe the artist wanting a card to indicate a child predator. The artist probably didn't have that in mind, but now it's going to stick in my mind when I use the deck.

manhattan9thgate

Lyric said:
This is almost a direct quote of what I said in another thread awhile back. (I don't mean you were quoting me, but our sentiments are just about exactly the same.) When I said it, then I got some snide come-backs about Americans and their "phobia" of nudity, but oh well-----I still can't imagine any country where it would be okay for a man naked from the waist down and with a knife to sit in a park full of kids. If there is a country like that, I don't wanna live there. And besides, who says he's meditating? There's nothing saying that in the book entry that goes with the deck.

Here's what the book says, and it actually makes me roll my eyes:

"In the ten of pentacles, we experience the satisfaction of having all our needs met. Having attained a level of security, we have good reason to relax and to celebrate the abundance of life with friends and family.

At the same time, this card speaks to the importance of creating something worth passing on to future generations. Whatever your age, start thinking about the legacy you will leave. What impact will your life have on the world?

On an even deeper level, the Ten of Pentacles offers a gateway into the essence of its suit; that the everyday world contains magic and mystery that we are often too busy to acknowledge. Honoring this magic is perhaps the most profound and valuable legacy we can leave behind."

I've refrained from inserting any comments I felt the strong urge to insert because I don't want a huge outcry of how disrespectful I am of the artists who created this deck, but I truly don't see what the artist sees in this card. I just don't understand how male nudity from the waist down fits into the vision expressed in the book. Maybe it's best I don't.

That's an interesting thought about maybe the artist wanting a card to indicate a child predator. The artist probably didn't have that in mind, but now it's going to stick in my mind when I use the deck.

I'm looking at this card as I type and what I see is a naked man sitting in a lotus position. his feet are obscuring the genitals (just barely). the knife is lying beside what appears to be melon or some fruit that has been sliced open.
the children are playing within a magic circle abd there's a bush behind the man with flowering penatcles.
I think what the artist was attempting to convey was a sense of Eden-like bliss, a kind of paradise of earthly abundance and innocence free of concern. it's almost like the Adam and Eve story about how their nakedness was not a concern until they ate the fruit (Apple) of knowledge.

Realistically, it may have been a bit too idealistic to take such liberties with this image. Your aversion to this image is completely understandable and justified IMO. I personally have no problems with the card as is, but I think it's important for people to voice their constructive opinions and criticisms about any deck of tarot cards so you should not feel that you have to hold back. after all, isn't that what this forum is about.
it's important for future artists to take note about how people feel. after all if you're offended, you won't buy their decks.

Ciro M. who created the Gilded Tarot and Tarot of Dreams took people's objections to nudity very seriously. he even has a big message about it on his website. you will notice there is no nudity whatsoever in any of his decks. If memory serves, the most flesh you ever see is a muscular torso in tarot of dreams-ace of coins and 5 of wands.....oh yea, also a cowering naked Fool inside a cage in the Devil card, but the Fool is face down and all rolled up so all you see is his his back, legs and feet. hardly anything suggestive or purient in that image (unlike the Devil card in the World Spirit which we already discussed).

sapienza

Thanks for all the responses to my initial query. I will say that before I altered my Robin Wood deck I bought a second copy which is currently un-opened. I couldn't have gone ahead and done it if I didn't have a backup.

It is true that when you make alterations that they are quite obviously different from the surface of the cards and this does bother me a bit, but not as much as the stuff I orginally didn't like - if that makes sense.

I notice a lot of people are commenting about the World Spirit deck, and in particular the 10 of Pentacles. I actually use this deck as well and if I ever do a reading for someone this is the deck I use. Now strangely this card doesn't both me. There are a few cards in the deck that bother me but as a whole I love it so I wouldn't make changes to just one or two cards.

I think with the Robin Wood, it was going to be a deck I put away and never used so I didn't have much to lose. I guess as someone said it would be easier to find another deck but there is so much about it I did like that it seemed a shame for it to be wasting away in a drawer.

Grizabella

manhattan9thgate said:
I think what the artist was attempting to convey was a sense of Eden-like bliss, a kind of paradise of earthly abundance and innocence free of concern. it's almost like the Adam and Eve story about how their nakedness was not a concern until they ate the fruit (Apple) of knowledge.

If that were the case, though, wouldn't the artists have just depicted him totally naked and the children naked, too? I think I could have understood and grasped that better, as a matter of fact.

How do people feel about altering cards?

Grizabella

manhattan9thgate

Deana

Deana

euripides

Grizabella

Grizabella

manhattan9thgate

sapienza

Grizabella