Reading Advice

I am pretty new to the Thoth Tarot and today did a general reading for a querant. I was hoping the more experienced readers here could shine some light and give me tips on where I can improve when reading with this deck. I hope that I am not being presumptuous by posting this as a newbie to the forum.

So in the hub at the centre

The Devil / Lust / Art

Upper Dexter Quadrant

6 Wands (Victory) / The Moon / 6 Discs (Success)

Upper Sinister

Ace of Wands / Ace of Cups / Knight of Wands

Lower Sinister

2 of Wands (Dominion) / The Sun / Princess of Wands

Lower Dexter

7 Wands (Valour) / Queen of Discs / 9 Wands (Strength)



I immediately noticed how the three central cards are all Trumps. So I interpret there must be very strong forces at work and the querent not being in control of the current situation.

Lust in the centre adds to this idea of strong spiritual forces and magic. The Devil being Sinister to it indicates an emphasis of the sexual aspect and also puts an extra level of uncontrollability into the mix. Having Art in the Dexter position was quite interesting with all its connotations regarding control and manageability. Though it is a strongly alchemical card so maybe it indicates that this is a situation that leads to a transformation?

So I think the hub cards could read that the querent is in a very transformative time of life on the cusp of major changes. That they have the opportunity to make a major change to their life but a lot of this may be out of their control.

The cards in the two Upper Quadrants oppose each other in this reading so I will take the Upper Dexter to show the natural unobstructed course and the Upper Sinister as alternatives.

First I will read the Upper Dexter. Now we know the moon is very changeable and subject to its neighbours so having it in the centre always shows an uncertain future to me. Again it indicates a major change is on its way, from the dignity of the card I think this should be a positive change taking the querent in a better direction. This positivity is reinforced having Six of Wands (Victory) Sinister and Six of Discs (Success) Dexter, so I would very much say things will move in a positive direction. Maybe this indicates the gain of a love interest? These cards all seem a bit transitory though so I wouldn’t put any confidence in this being a permanent change, this Moon worries me that this success will be fleeting. Both the Six of Wands and Six of discs speak of success after strife so that is very consistent with the hub cards. Is there any special significance to having two sixes together like this?

So wands are very hostile to cups so the Upper Sinister is low in dignity. The Central ace combined with an ace sinister to it I think indicates this will be a shift away from the status quo. There seems to be a major clash of energies here, between passive and active. Taking in mind the hub cards could this be a spiritual crisis as well? The Knight might indicate a negative influence from someone, perhaps a bigoted or hostile person, the card looks towards the centre so looks like this person will be entering rather than leaving the querent’s life. It does not look like it will be good if this future comes to pass. I think that this will be someone new or not well known to the querant.

Now turning to the Lower Sinister Quadrant we see Sun in the centre in High Dignity by the two fiery wands on either side. This is the section that is puzzling me the most. Here we see fire in its strongest transforming form. We have the Sun which is a transforming fire together with the Two of Wands (Dominion) which represents the perfection of fire and the beginning of a creative process. The princess even depicts a rod crowned with the sun. It feels like there should be some very definite message here but I am finding it hard to deduce. Maybe it indicates that the querent needs to be adaptable to change and embrace a strong and dominating position?

In the Lower Dexter Quadrant we see the Queen of Discs centre. I was tempted to think this might represent a person but on second reflection I have shied away from that interpretation. It seems quite well dignified by having the wands on either side. I think the queen indicates stability here even with the wands on either side, maybe advice to be persistent. That seems consistent with having the Nine of wands (Strength) on the Dexter Side. Strength talks about succeeding despite strife and the other quadrants certainly indicate a lot of strife and changeability afoot. So the cards might advise to be strong and persistent and stick to the present course regardless of obstacles. Maybe it says not to feel tempted to try new and novel paths but to stick with the familiar path represented by the queen and to do so with Strength and Valour?

I can’t tie the two lower quadrants together unfortunately so some help would be appreciated there.

Hi Ancaria!

I'm not familiar with the spread you used, it might help in interpretations if I was. Do you have a picture or diagram of it?

Thank you, it's the Golden Dawn 15 card spread

http://tarotsmith.net/ramblings/goldendawn-spread/

Hi Ancaria

An interesting looking spread, though I am not familiar with the descriptions such as Dexter or sinister? Also, the reference to these as quadrants, a little confused here... the cards are in sets of three, as referred to in your link as trinities. I am not an experienced reader myself though...

I have just got in the habit of saying Dexter and Sinister rather than right and left when discussing divination. I have written the cards as they appeared so Sinister/centre/Dexter

Ancaria said:

I have just got in the habit of saying Dexter and Sinister rather than right and left when discussing divination. I have written the cards as they appeared so Sinister/centre/Dexter

Click to expand...

would that be then the right hand path for Dexter and the left hand Sinister path? I found this article extract which interestingly has overlaps with working with your shadow (Jung) and trying to integrate that. Perhaps the centre then is an indication of the balance? or control/lack of control of the two sides?

"THE SINISTER PATH:

An Introduction to Traditional Satanism
Copyright 1994 Anton Long

Essentially, the difference between Traditional Satanic groups and other
organizations which profess to belong to the 'Left Hand' or 'Sinister' Path, or
which claim to be Satanic, is that Traditional groups seek to realistically
guide their members along the difficult and dangerous path of self-development,
the goal of which is the creation of an entirely new individual. This path is
fundamentally a quest for self-excellence and wisdom.

We believe that there is no easy way to real knowledge and insight of the
'Occult' kind - that each individual must walk this path and achieve things for
themselves. There are no 'ceremonies', no magickal 'rites', not even any
teachings which can provide the individual with genuine wisdom: real wisdom is
only and always attained by the personal effort of the individual over many
years. It is the result of a synthesis - a development of the dark side and an
integration of that aspect of our being thus creating a complete, more evolved
individual.".....

I've never been a huge fan of this spread because it decouples or scatters the series of cards as they come off the deck. For example, I would prefer to have the upper-right (upper dexter quadrant, I'm assuming) series be 5-4-6, the upper-left (upper sinister quadrant) to be 8-7-9, and so forth, to mirror the way the first 3-card set is laid out. This would make each sub-set a true "trinity" as arranged by the shuffle, and enable more effective use of elemental dignities. I realize its just a different way to "slice-and-dice" things, but I find it too "prismatic" and unnecessarily complicated. It grates on my "spread-crafter's sensibilities." I would most certainly never spring it on a "live" sitter since I would just tie myself up in knots; there are many more straightforward ways to get an answer.

Anyway, to get back on topic, by ED:

Lust would be moderately strengthened since Earth/Devil and Fire/Art are mutually supportive and both supportive of Fire/Lust

Moon would be neutral since - although Fire/6 of Wands and Earth/6 of Disks are mutually supportive, Fire is unfriendly to Water/Moon while Earth is friendly, effectively cancelling each other out.

Ace of Cups would be seriously weakened since both adjacent cards are unfriendly Fire cards

Sun is greatly strengthened since the entire trinity is Fire

Queen of Disks is fairly well dignified since the two adjacent Fire cards are supportive of Earth and friendly to one another

To get to an answer in as direct a way as possible, my next inclination would be to read the five "focus" cards - Lust-Moon-Ace of Cups-Sun-Queen of Disks as a sequence, with the rest of the cards as modulating background information.

To put these cards in a line that mirrors the structure of the original layout of core ("querent") sub-set augmented by upper and lower dexter and sinister sub-sets, I think I would set it up left-to-right as Sun-Ace of Cups-Lust-Moon-Queen of Disks.

Carrying on with EDs, Lust would be debilitated by the two adjacent Water cards, but the Ace of Cups to the left - already compromised by its original associations - would again be weakened by being between two Fire cards, so perhaps its influence over Lust would be moderated, leaving the Moon as its only marginally dynamic "co-conspirator." To the right, the Moon would again be in a neutral status because the arrangement of Fire-Water-Earth is identical to that of the upper-dexter trinity where the Moon was first situated. In sum, it looks like Lust holds its own, suggesting that challenges to the querent's self-esteem, self-image, self-control - all Leo attributes - would be relatively inconsequential.

Keeping to the original sub-set titles, Lust is bracketed by the "Current Path" and "Alternate Path" focus cards. The current path on the right (dexter) side has the neutral Moon leading to the dignified Queen of Disks, while the alternate path on the left (sinister) side has the ill-dignified Ace of Cups leading to the unfriendly Sun. Reading this, I would advise that, while the Ace of Cups-Sun path may seem more inspiring and alluring, there is potential for a good deal of emotional turmoil, while the "quieter" Moon-Queen of Disks path seems to lead to a less exciting but more stable place. My advice would be to stay the course on the present path.

I realize all of this is heretical, but trying to turn each sub-set into a mini-story and then weave everything together into a seamless overall narrative is way too iterative for me. I like to cut right to the heart as well as I can.

Ancaria said:

So I think the hub cards could read that the querent is in a very transformative time of life on the cusp of major changes. That they have the opportunity to make a major change to their life but a lot of this may be out of their control.

The cards in the two Upper Quadrants oppose each other in this reading so I will take the Upper Dexter to show the natural unobstructed course and the Upper Sinister as alternatives.

First I will read the Upper Dexter. Now we know the moon is very changeable and subject to its neighbours so having it in the centre always shows an uncertain future to me. Again it indicates a major change is on its way, from the dignity of the card I think this should be a positive change taking the querent in a better direction. This positivity is reinforced having Six of Wands (Victory) Sinister and Six of Discs (Success) Dexter, so I would very much say things will move in a positive direction. Maybe this indicates the gain of a love interest? These cards all seem a bit transitory though so I wouldn’t put any confidence in this being a permanent change, this Moon worries me that this success will be fleeting. Both the Six of Wands and Six of discs speak of success after strife so that is very consistent with the hub cards. Is there any special significance to having two sixes together like this?

So wands are very hostile to cups so the Upper Sinister is low in dignity. The Central ace combined with an ace sinister to it I think indicates this will be a shift away from the status quo. There seems to be a major clash of energies here, between passive and active. Taking in mind the hub cards could this be a spiritual crisis as well? The Knight might indicate a negative influence from someone, perhaps a bigoted or hostile person, the card looks towards the centre so looks like this person will be entering rather than leaving the querent’s life. It does not look like it will be good if this future comes to pass. I think that this will be someone new or not well known to the querant.

Click to expand...

just a few thoughts, (I hope you don't mind a bit of a different take) going with your reading that the hub cards may indicate a time of transformation, major life changes, I might see the Moon in between the two sixes of the upper Dexter being very relevant. As a card of midnight and transformation, some call the Dark night of the soul, a period that is painful but has be gone through to get to the other side. The success of this period might lead to the positivity of the the sixes representing balance and harmony. The six of disks, as earth and the other showing fire energy, balanced and orderly flames instead of shooting out in all directions. The Aces seem to be neutral and not in opposition to each other. Perhaps working successfully side by side on two levels, the earthy material plane and with fire, which could be associated with spiritual development. (There are nine flames another reference to the moon).

The upper sinister alternative as you say, does seem to be less dignified with the Ace of Wands and Cups, though interestingly the Ace of Cups is described in the Book of Thoth as the feminine counterpart to the Ace of Wands, with the cup having the moon at it's base. Perhaps again a hint of the possible difficulty of a moon period, but not necessarily a bad thing. Or maybe they are both only strong energies as aces and can cancel each other out - and also next to the impulsive, fiery Knight of Wands that burns brightly but can *burn out* out after the first try.

Barleywine said:

I've never been a huge fan of this spread because it decouples or scatters the series of cards as they come off the deck. For example, I would prefer to have the upper-right (upper dexter quadrant, I'm assuming) series be 5-4-6, the upper-left (upper sinister quadrant) to be 8-7-9, and so forth, to mirror the way the first 3-card set is laid out. This would make each sub-set a true "trinity" as arranged by the shuffle, and enable more effective use of elemental dignities. I realize its just a different way to "slice-and-dice" things, but I find it too "prismatic" and unnecessarily complicated. It grates on my "spread-crafter's sensibilities." I would most certainly never spring it on a "live" sitter since I would just tie myself up in knots; there are many more straightforward ways to get an answer.

Anyway, to get back on topic, by ED:

Lust would be moderately strengthened since Earth/Devil and Fire/Art are mutually supportive and both supportive of Fire/Lust

Moon would be neutral since - although Fire/6 of Wands and Earth/6 of Disks are mutually supportive, Fire is unfriendly to Water/Moon while Earth is friendly, effectively cancelling each other out.

Ace of Cups would be seriously weakened since both adjacent cards are unfriendly Fire cards

Sun is greatly strengthened since the entire trinity is Fire

Queen of Disks is fairly well dignified since the two adjacent Fire cards are supportive of Earth and friendly to one another

To get to an answer in as direct a way as possible, my next inclination would be to read the five "focus" cards - Lust-Moon-Ace of Cups-Sun-Queen of Disks as a sequence, with the rest of the cards as modulating background information.

To put these cards in a line that mirrors the structure of the original layout of core ("querent") sub-set augmented by upper and lower dexter and sinister sub-sets, I think I would set it up left-to-right as Sun-Ace of Cups-Lust-Moon-Queen of Disks.

Carrying on with EDs, Lust would be debilitated by the two adjacent Water cards, but the Ace of Cups to the left - already compromised by its original associations - would again be weakened by being between two Fire cards, so perhaps its influence over Lust would be moderated, leaving the Moon as its only marginally dynamic "co-conspirator." To the right, the Moon would again be in a neutral status because the arrangement of Fire-Water-Earth is identical to that of the upper-dexter trinity where the Moon was first situated. In sum, it looks like Lust holds its own, suggesting that challenges to the querent's self-esteem, self-image, self-control - all Leo attributes - would be relatively inconsequential.

Keeping to the original sub-set titles, Lust is bracketed by the "Current Path" and "Alternate Path" focus cards. The current path on the right (dexter) side has the neutral Moon leading to the dignified Queen of Disks, while the alternate path on the left (sinister) side has the ill-dignified Ace of Cups leading to the unfriendly Sun. Reading this, I would advise that, while the Ace of Cups-Sun path may seem more inspiring and alluring, there is potential for a good deal of emotional turmoil, while the "quieter" Moon-Queen of Disks path seems to lead to a less exciting but more stable place. My advice would be to stay the course on the present path.

I realize all of this is heretical, but trying to turn each sub-set into a mini-story and then weave everything together into a seamless overall narrative is way too iterative for me. I like to cut right to the heart as well as I can.

Click to expand...

This is an interesting way of looking at it, I did not think to pull the focus cards out into a line like that. It does add some context to it. I think that I did not judge the elemental associations of the trumps very well so you have really cleared that up.

I can definitely see where your coming from with the idea of the turbulent and stable paths, they really do contradict quiet heavily when you read them as two branching paths like that.

This really does put an interesting spin on it, it is certainly different from how I tried to read it, quadrant by quadrant so to speak.

smw said:

just a few thoughts, (I hope you don't mind a bit of a different take) going with your reading that the hub cards may indicate a time of transformation, major life changes, I might see the Moon in between the two sixes of the upper Dexter being very relevant. As a card of midnight and transformation, some call the Dark night of the soul, a period that is painful but has be gone through to get to the other side. The success of this period might lead to the positivity of the the sixes representing balance and harmony. The six of disks, as earth and the other showing fire energy, balanced and orderly flames instead of shooting out in all directions. The Aces seem to be neutral and not in opposition to each other. Perhaps working successfully side by side on two levels, the earthy material plane and with fire, which could be associated with spiritual development. (There are nine flames another reference to the moon).

The upper sinister alternative as you say, does seem to be less dignified with the Ace of Wands and Cups, though interestingly the Ace of Cups is described in the Book of Thoth as the feminine counterpart to the Ace of Wands, with the cup having the moon at it's base. Perhaps again a hint of the possible difficulty of a moon period, but not necessarily a bad thing. Or maybe they are both only strong energies as aces and can cancel each other out - and also next to the impulsive, fiery Knight of Wands that burns brightly but can *burn out* out after the first try.

Click to expand...

Your interpretation of the upper Dexter really fascinates me. The idea of the sixes being a balancing force tie in with what barley mentioned with the neutrality of the Moon card. No great unsettling force at play seems apparent in that upper Dexter quadrant.

This reference to the moon within the Ace of cups is an interesting idea, a link between these two upper quadrants.

In regards to your mention of the Knight of Wands you see tis as a burn out card. Do you see much significance in it facing towards the centre of the quadrant? I would also be interested in your thoughts over whether this card might represent a particular person.