Could readings go wrong?

Stark Raven

We don't. But what is the immediate guess, made by people?

There is a reader who judges a situation by appling different skills like background knowledge, intuition, maybe simply listening to to the sitter, general experience, whatever. And there is a card that turns up with an attached meaning that collides with the reader's judgement.

You may question the card being the "right" one.

You may question the interpretation of the card. In that case you can stretch, bend and creatively extend the meaning of the card to make it a better fit to your judgement of the situation. But that is just a compromise between common sense judgement and the divinational process by actually diluting the divination and making the reading more "intuitive".

You may question the reader's judgement of the situation and by doing so question all the skills the reader applied.

If it comes down to it, it's either the card (and maybe the reader failing to focus some sort of energies to make the right card appear) OR the ability of the reader to judge a situation by non-tarot skills. To me it seems a bit unfair to question the reader's judgemental skills in defence of a divination process that (as a process) will never by accurate in every single case, a fact that I actually thought would be undisputed.

If a person's common sense judgement stands against the outcome of a divinational tool of whatever kind, I would always blame the divinational tool first, if I have to have an opinion at all.

In my mind, being a person who has been an industry insider in a few different industries has a tendency to adopt a 'secret society' hush up sort of a stance to this. Many industries have things that they will and won't recognize or admit to on some principle of logic based on that industry and its function or perhaps a desired/necessary type of public perception. I didn't think anyone would get me to say this, to fess up as it were. But now it'll be in the open. If readers are wrong x much of the time, and the cards are, in theory, whatever, wrong x much of the time, then where is a person supposed to place their faith, place their bet as it were. That goes for both readers and sitters.

I absolutely refuse to take the belief that both can be wrong, because if I do I feel I have no right to perform divination with Tarot. If I were to ever believe it, I still wouldn't tell. Get it? Not to be taken as me agreeing with your stance on this.
 

Aeon418

Otherwise I wouldn't understand what actually distinguishes that from fortune telling.
The fortune-telling approach treats the potential possibilities presented by Tarot in a fatalistic way. Instead of veiwing a reading as an image of possible outcomes or scenarios that can help you reflect on the present situation, it sees the reading as a definite prediction of a future event that will happen simply because the cards have spoken.

The first case is comparable to seeking the advice of a consultant. You may take on board some , all, or none of their advice. But the final decision and the direction of the next step rests with you. Success is not guaranteed either. But hey, that's life.

The second case is a unwitting gamble on a possibility based on the false assumption that a predicted future event is a certainty based solely on the turn of a card.
Just hand the keys to your life over and sit in the passenger seat and shuffle those cards to see what's going to happen next. :bugeyed:

Or not as the case may be... :laugh:
 

gregory

The fortune-telling approach treats the potential possibilities presented by Tarot in a fatalistic way. Instead of viewing a reading as an image of possible outcomes or scenarios that can help you reflect on the present situation, it sees the reading as a definite prediction of a future event that will happen simply because the cards have spoken.

The first case is comparable to seeking the advice of a consultant. You may take on board some , all, or none of their advice. But the final decision and the direction of the next step rests with you. Success is not guaranteed either. But hey, that's life.

The second case is a unwitting gamble on a possibility based on the false assumption that a predicted future event is a certainty based solely on the turn of a card.
Just hand the keys to your life over and sit in the passenger seat and shuffle those cards to see what's going to happen next. :bugeyed:

Or not as the case may be... :laugh:
Yes ! Thanks !
 

trzes

The fortune-telling approach treats the potential possibilities presented by Tarot in a fatalistic way. Instead of veiwing a reading as an image of possible outcomes or scenarios that can help you reflect on the present situation, it sees the reading as a definite prediction of a future event that will happen simply because the cards have spoken.

The first case is comparable to seeking the advice of a consultant. You may take on board some , all, or none of their advice. But the final decision and the direction of the next step rests with you. Success is not guaranteed either. But hey, that's life.

The second case is a unwitting gamble on a possibility based on the false assumption that a predicted future event is a certainty based solely on the turn of a card.
Just hand the keys to your life over and sit in the passenger seat and shuffle those cards to see what's going to happen next. :bugeyed:

Or not as the case may be... :laugh:

Which means (if I understand you right) actually to draw the line between accepting and neglecting the presence of uncertainty. That does make sense to me.

And which also looks as if not to draw an obvious line between reflecting a current situation by common sense and also getting some divinational guidance about it and about possible future development. That is also fine by me, although I, personally, would use the term "divination" in a slightly narrower way. The first distinction is the more important one for me, but this second one seems to be a delicate and essential issue for many people here as well. To be continued in my next post …
 

trzes

In my mind, being a person who has been an industry insider in a few different industries has a tendency to adopt a 'secret society' hush up sort of a stance to this. Many industries have things that they will and won't recognize or admit to on some principle of logic based on that industry and its function or perhaps a desired/necessary type of public perception. I didn't think anyone would get me to say this, to fess up as it were. But now it'll be in the open. If readers are wrong x much of the time, and the cards are, in theory, whatever, wrong x much of the time, then where is a person supposed to place their faith, place their bet as it were. That goes for both readers and sitters.

I absolutely refuse to take the belief that both can be wrong, because if I do I feel I have no right to perform divination with Tarot. If I were to ever believe it, I still wouldn't tell. Get it? Not to be taken as me agreeing with your stance on this.

Actually no, I don't get it. Why would you have no right to use Tarot, just because it might be wrong in some single casss? I mean, if you were a doctor and had to decide wether to do a surgery or not, a decision like this would be surely based on some diagnosis that is uncertain too. And you can't just not decide, you will decide anyway, and be it by just doing nothing. The best thing you can do is to include as much information as possible to base your decision on. And if you believe at least partly in divination, why should you leave out this source of information just because it is uncertain? I do have faith in doctors although I am perfectly aware that they might kill me during an operation that goes wrong. And I would be already dead if I hadn't in the past.

IMO it's exactely the other way round. If you blindly believe in diviniation by denying that it might go wrong then you will automatically rule out other sources of information if they conflict with your divinational message. And THIS can be indeed irresponsible. If your sitter told you about a pain in his or her chest (physically, not metaphorically), would you seriously lay a spread to find out if this might be a heart attack coming or would you rather call an ambulance or at least a doctor? You will always weigh up what to trust more in every single situation.

And why would you not tell anybody if you had doubt in divination being infallable? What do I have to read between the lines about about to "adopt a secret society hush up sort of a stance to this"? Well, something I learned here at AT is indeed, that looking critically into the details of how tarot works and how it doesn't, or reflecting too much about the mechanisms that make it work might for some people in some situations spoil the magic of the whole thing and maybe even have a negative effect on their reading abilities. I am sure I would honor myself too much thinking that my two cents I am adding here and there had more than virtually no influence at all. But still, as I don't want to spoil anybody's fun I only post my remarks in threads titled like "Could readings go wrong" or "How tarot works" or stuff like that. This should be enough of a "spoiler alert" to keep the more sensitive people away, since this is an open forum where all kinds of matters can be discussed. What a poor place would AT become if a "hush up" attitude would be given a chance to spread...
 

Stark Raven

Actually no, I don't get it. Why would you have no right to use Tarot, just because it might be wrong in some single casss? I mean, if you were a doctor and had to decide wether to do a surgery or not, a decision like this would be surely based on some diagnosis that is uncertain too. And you can't just not decide, you will decide anyway, and be it by just doing nothing. The best thing you can do is to include as much information as possible to base your decision on. And if you believe at least partly in divination, why should you leave out this source of information just because it is uncertain? I do have faith in doctors although I am perfectly aware that they might kill me during an operation that goes wrong. And I would be already dead if I hadn't in the past.

Here's the way I see it... that doctors (for example) don't generally have to impress people by saying that this many felt this way about their services, and back it up with statistics (as online readers do). So comparing a doctor to what online readers face as far as faith from readers is like comparing apples and oranges.

Comparing doctors and public perception to offline readers, well our society idolizes those in the medical profession. They like to scrutinize and dissect the services of those involved in divination services. That's just talking about the perception, by the people who the services are in theory to be exchanged with. People in our field deserve more faith and respect than what is issued by society as a whole; I feel that if I had ever seen anything that shook my faith considerably, no I would prefer to keep it to myself. With one exception, if for some reason I lost faith in Tarot divination altogether. Then why should I? All shams should be exposed.

As for me, personally I believe that the information had better be right all the time. I do believe it is (that which is held within the cards). I do believe that it's my responsibility as a reader to learn how to apply it. I do also, as stated believe that if I didn't, I would be a sham artist, encouraging people to gamble on issues of concern. I couldn't convince myself it was right to talk people into utilizing a service which is fundamentally flawed.

IMO it's exactely the other way round. If you blindly believe in diviniation by denying that it might go wrong then you will automatically rule out other sources of information if they conflict with your divinational message.

Taken out of context. I said that there is much room for error on the part of the reader. I have never claimed to have an accuracy level of anything close to perfection. I truly don't believe anyone can have a 100% accuracy rating or close to it.

And THIS can be indeed irresponsible. If your sitter told you about a pain in his or her chest (physically, not metaphorically), would you seriously lay a spread to find out if this might be a heart attack coming or would you rather call an ambulance or at least a doctor? You will always weigh up what to trust more in every single situation.

I wouldn't do a reading for health issues; don't believe it's my place and the risk is too high.

And why would you not tell anybody if you had doubt in divination being infallable? What do I have to read between the lines about about to "adopt a secret society hush up sort of a stance to this"?

No one has to do anything, not by me or anyone else. What works for me is not works for others in all cases. I threw that out there for those that agree. Those that agree may or may not be the minority, but I guarantee you they exist, because whether anyone likes it or not, they exist in most industries; these are the people that protect the reputation of these industries which allow them to thrive. If these people (along with their ways) did not exist, I believe many industries would face more chaotic 'public versus the industry' perceptions, much more often.

Well, something I learned here at AT is indeed, that looking critically into the details of how tarot works and how it doesn't, or reflecting too much about the mechanisms that make it work might for some people in some situations spoil the magic of the whole thing and maybe even have a negative effect on their reading abilities. I am sure I would honor myself too much thinking that my two cents I am adding here and there had more than virtually no influence at all. But still, as I don't want to spoil anybody's fun I only post my remarks in threads titled like "Could readings go wrong" or "How tarot works" or stuff like that. This should be enough of a "spoiler alert" to keep the more sensitive people away, since this is an open forum where all kinds of matters can be discussed. What a poor place would AT become if a "hush up" attitude would be given a chance to spread...

Your analysis on my comment to encourage those that prefer to, to 'hush up' (of course then, only if they found it necessary and favorable to do so), is based upon an assumption. The assumption is that the comment was directed at all. Yes, just everyone now just sweep all details of everything you ever saw that inspired doubt (regarding the information provided by the cards, I didn't say anything about hiding that we can make mistakes) under the carpet. And just because I said so. First of all I know that people aren't that feeble that their opinion would change due to anything I said.

But this is all paraphrasing, because I don't believe that all people should do this, as I said. This world requires balance. That wouldn't create a balanced field. We need those that choose to do that. You have your right to feel that we don't! You still have the right to your opinion, but you haven't changed mine.
 

gregory

Actually and just to be clear here - increasingly decisions on doctors are made by ratings - we are encouraged to give them when we see our doctors, and to check doctors out on line before choosing them or the treatments they offer. It is coming in all over. Many governments are actually begin to publish RATINGS of this sort. People DON'T idolise doctors any more; they are more likely to be suing them.

Not saying it is a good idea, but - well, just saying.... It isn't just tarot readers and the like.
 

Stark Raven

Actually and just to be clear her e- increasingly decisions on doctors is made by ratings - we are encouraged to give them and to check doctors out on line before choosing them or the treatments they offer. It is coming in all over. Many governments are actually begin to publish RATINGS of this sort. People DON'T idolise doctors any more; they are more likely to be suing them.

Not saying it is a good idea, but - well, just saying.... It isn't just tarot readers and the like.

Okay, well thanks for pointing that out, here they still idolize them and don't engage in rating them yet. I hope that will change. The only ratings to be found for doctors here are the ones online (not too dependable as they lack objectivity and control), nothing offline, at least freely available to the public. The overall point was, and yes I realize from your response you recognize this - that Tarot card readers deserve respect. In a balanced way, NOT to have everyone pull the wool over peoples' eyes. Just to have the balance of those that choose to stay mum, do just that. Maybe doctors for one are facing similar now, maybe other professions too. But a little extra support/faith never hurt anyone.
 

trzes

But this is all paraphrasing, because I don't believe that all people should do this, as I said. This world requires balance. That wouldn't create a balanced field. We need those that choose to do that. You have your right to feel that we don't! You still have the right to your opinion, but you haven't changed mine.

I am glad that this is settled. I obviously read a bit too much between the lines. And in fact I do, for the sake of balance or for other reasons, often think it's a good idea to keep my thoughts for myself in a certain situation. Doesn't work all the time.

Taken out of context. I said that there is much room for error on the part of the reader. I have never claimed to have an accuracy level of anything close to perfection. I truly don't believe anyone can have a 100% accuracy rating or close to it.

And that sounds pretty much like: “A reading went wrong? Don't blame the cards or the divination process. Blame the reader”. But regarding this situation for example:

I've also had (less commonly) some readings where I think one or more cards were flat out not the right cards. Could they have been right, and I just needed to interpret them wildly differently from the interpretations that have worked best for me? Possibly, but in the cases I'm talking about here, applying Occam's razor says the cards were wrong.

How would this situation have been different if no “error on the part of the reader” had occurred here? Would the “wrong” card not turn up? I strongly doubt it. Would the “right” interpretation come to the reader casually? Maybe, but this is just a euphemism for “interpret the cards wildly differently …” I think the only thing that DOES make a difference is to become more comfortable with the fact that:

Nothing in this world works all the time. And in my view that applies double for predictive readings.

3rd post by the way, the thread could have ended there. But as it didn’t I insist again: IMHO it is important to accept that and to never let a wrong card stand against your common sense judgment of a situation. Health readings were only a dramatic example for that. It's a general problem: You get a card that looks wrong. You don't dare to question the card to be the correct one. You also feel uncomfortable to reinterpret the meanings. And you end up questioning your judgement of the situation.
 

Stark Raven

I agree that the question you raised (example provided by Kitichi's post) is an interesting point, but it doesn't exclude variables such as, inexperience of the reader not knowing all possible meanings and variations, including elemental dignities and how they would apply; being distracted while shuffling, the cards trying to override the question to provide more important news on another topic, temporary 'senior moment' type blockages, and so on. Too, I have had at times been given a message by the cards that had no direct association to standard interpretation, but somehow it could make my mind jump to the meaning. Like once when someone was in danger, the seven of Pentacles appeared to be waiting ominously in the bushes, yielding a hoe. I believe there would have to be times such messages would go unnoticed, don't you think?

The example you provide by using Gregory's post to illustrate, well that to me, to paraphrase, says that the cards are more suited to spiritual growth and insight than to divination. It doesn't actually suggest that the cards are in error. It seems to imply that fault lies to some degree in the reader using them that way, for divination. That is a theory I agree with; but the risk, as applied to accuracy seems quite small. It doesn't mean that when used as a divination tool, the message of the cards is wrong, or occasionally wrong. His suggestion seems to say 'expect that if you use this information in this way, it doesn't always apply perfectly'. I agree with that perception, although am not sure that's what Gregory intended to say.