Deck population in Tarot apps

Does anyone know how decks are populated on apps? Are the decks randomly generated, or are they predetermined ( for instance in the order of a newly opened physical deck)? I'm having trouble trusting any readings done by apps because of this issue.

Also, if you use an app, how you feel about not being able to communicate with the deck? When I'm preparing to read I'm handling my deck, I'm meditating over it, I'm speaking to it, I'm communicating my psychic energy at that moment. But trying to do any of that with an app just feels so pointless to me.

Apps use various random number generators to order the cards. The cards are not in a specific order.

I figure if meditating can change the molecules in cardboard, it can also change the molecules in the computer display

Slowflyingmonkey said:

Does anyone know how decks are populated on apps? Are the decks randomly generated, or are they predetermined ( for instance in the order of a newly opened physical deck)? I'm having trouble trusting any readings done by apps because of this issue.

Also, if you use an app, how you feel about not being able to communicate with the deck? When I'm preparing to read I'm handling my deck, I'm meditating over it, I'm speaking to it, I'm communicating my psychic energy at that moment. But trying to do any of that with an app just feels so pointless to me.

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I'm not sure how the decks are populated, but I'm pretty sure the reading layouts are created by Random Number Generator. I share your disinterest in generating spreads this way. About as far as I'll go is single-card selection for a spread I arrange myself (for example, in the excellent Orphalese Tarot program). It's about the intent of the person selecting the card, and I don't see pushing a button as much different from pulling a card from a fan. But it took me a long time to even make that concession. Electronically producing entire spreads at the stroke of a digit seems too much like the old "fortune telling machines" or even "fortune cookies." I too like the tactile interaction with a deck, and I like it even better if the querent also engages in handling the deck.

Apps are probably more random than physical decks which are shuffled by people. The ordering of a deck is determined by its previous order, number of shuffles, etc. Unless you "wash" the deck each time it is never completely mixed from one reading to another.

Now, even in computers there's nothing completely random. The software renders the outward appearance of randomness since a computer can't do anything other than what it's told. But because everything is relative it is still more random than if a human did it. The same type of software is used in gaming machines in casinos and those things are regulated by gaming commissions to ensure their randomness. No such oversight exists with Tarot apps, of course, but the idea is pretty much the same.

Zephyros said:

Apps are probably more random than physical decks which are shuffled by people. The ordering of a deck is determined by its previous order, number of shuffles, etc. Unless you "wash" the deck each time it is never completely mixed from one reading to another.

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I hadn't thought of it like that. I usually shuffle twelve times to clear the deck then twice to prepare for asking the next question. That usually feels about right, but I guess there will never be a clean slate. Still don't like the idea of a digital reading though. Seems sterile and gimmicky.

Randomization versus fortuitous ordering is a whole other debate. It's been argued that the purpose of the shuffle and cut is to put the deck in a specific order that aligns it with the source of the concealed knowledge (whatever you think that is) so the resulting card sequence can be read as an intelligible story that sheds light on your current and future reality. So randomizing without selectively re-integrating would seem to be only half of the story. Of course, starting with a thoroughly randomized deck every time is preferable, but in the final analysis it may not be as crucial as we think - that is, not the "be-all and end-all" of the spread creation process. I use Grizabella's randomizing method along with a few tweaks of my own before going into a reading, and if I'm going to do a number of readings in a row, I'll take a few randomized decks in case I don't have enough time between readings to do it then.

I agree Barleywine. In fact, one problem I have with apps is that they feel too random. I guess I feel the need for the cards to be aligned to the querent somehow. As Slowflyingmonkey said, it feels sterile.

Barleywine said:

Of course, starting with a thoroughly randomized deck every time is preferable, but in the final analysis it may not be as crucial as we think - that is, not the "be-all and end-all" of the spread creation process.

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Of course the spirit world can communicate using a poorly mixed deck, but doesn't it make sense that the message would be clearer if the cards were properly mixed before asking our question? Although I guess that's where development of Intuition comes in.

Actually, now I'm not sure how I feel about a thoroughly randomized deck.

Slowflyingmonkey said:

Of course the spirit world can communicate using a poorly mixed deck, but doesn't it make sense that the message would be clearer if the cards were properly mixed before asking our question? Although I guess that's where development of Intuition comes in.

Actually, now I'm not sure how I feel about a thoroughly randomized deck.

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I think the spirit world would be able to bypass the deck entirely and communicate on a whole different level, in which case cards should be unnecessary (just a "prop" as was mentioned in another thread). I personally find the action of spirit in relation to human assumptions and expectations to be an open-ended proposition; as Forrest Gump said "You never know what you're gonna get." But of course my viewpoint is a qabalistic one, based on a more critical presumption of the uncharitable intentions of some astral denizens, not the affirmative intervention and support of "spirit guides." Anyway, I like to keep it centered on conscious/subconscious interaction and leave any appeal to spirit out of it. I suppose it just comes down to how we think tarot "works," which ultimately is entirely personal, with no absolutes that we can prove.

Hi Slowflyingmonkey,

Let's break your question down a bit.

You asked how decks are populated on apps.

Are you asking how a Deck is shuffled and dealt?

Let's look at shuffling a physical Deck first.

Shuffling is a procedure used to randomise a Deck of Cards to provide an element of chance. The number of shuffles required to produce an acceptable level of randomness depends on the type of shuffle and the interpretation or perception of what constitutes an acceptable shuffle.

Randomness can be defined as every Card being equally likely to be in any position. If a Deck is not random, it means the Cards can be predicted from their original position at a frequency better than random guessing.

Now let's look at a virtual/online tarot software shuffle of a Deck:

A computer algorithm can generate a random permutation of the Cards. Simply put, the program can repeatedly swap the position of two different Cards in a Deck imitating a physical shuffle.

It is said that a cartomancy (or playing) 52-Card Deck is considered random after 7 riffle shuffles compared to about 2,500 overhand shuffles. A riffle shuffle is when the Deck is divided into two halves, taking one half in the left hand, and the other in the right. Cards are then alternatively interleaved from the left and right hands to make one pile.

An overhand shuffle places the Deck in one hand, then, slides a small number of Cards from the top into the other hand until all Cards are in the other hand.

So in some respects, using online or virtual Tarot programs could actually produce a more random shuffle than a physical shuffle of a Deck. I mean, who is going to physically shuffle a Deck 2,500 times, right?

Tarot software can also use a computer algorithm to create a starting point (Seed) for the shuffle. The Seed is the numerical value of the word or phrase entered into the Seed Shuffle field. Even though the word or phrase could be a variable, the result of using the same Seed on multiple occasions may produce different results as each previous shuffling is independent. It might be that some of the online virtual tarot websites use seeds based on what you say when you are asked to enter information about your question.

I know that Orphalese Tarot software, for example, offers multiple ways of shuffling the Decks (including seeds).

Nothing really compares to holding the physical Deck in your hand but online Tarot and Tarot software programs also have an important place. For example, a program like Orphalese offers the ability to easily replicate a Reading created with a physical Deck for the purpose of saving an electronic copy of that Reading for later review and reflection. (Or, when you are reading for another person and want to send them an email of Card images, positions in the Spread and Descriptions/Notes.)