Death and Judgement

katep

Barleywine, thank you, I am feeling a bit confused by the dual meaning Judgement seems to have of judgement and renewal. Can it be both? I can understand the need to take the long view. Short term things will doubtless be horrible, long term hopefully better.

Ruby Jewel, Death came first. Page Wands was before if it's relevant.

Barleywine

Ruby Jewel said:
And what would you say if Judgement is followed by Death?

In strictly mundane terms I might see it as a "false start," a new direction that doesn't pan out. Maybe getting into something before you're prepared to deal with the "fallout." "One step forward, two steps back" and "getting the cart before the horse" come to mind.

Barleywine

katep said:
Barleywine, thank you, I am feeling a bit confused by the dual meaning Judgement seems to have of judgement and renewal. Can it be both? I can understand the need to take the long view. Short term things will doubtless be horrible, long term hopefully better.

Ruby Jewel, Death came first. Page Wands was before if it's relevant.

I think it of as "a judgement about the past that opens the door to the future." I tend to see it as something you have the opportunity to do, not something that is done to you. I've always gotten the most mileage out of Aleister Crowley's definition:

"Final decision in respect of the past, new current in respect of the future; always represents the taking of a definite step."

katep

Thank you, Barleywine, I like that quote, it's helpful.

Ruby Jewel

katep said:
Barleywine, thank you, I am feeling a bit confused by the dual meaning Judgement seems to have of judgement and renewal. Can it be both? I can understand the need to take the long view. Short term things will doubtless be horrible, long term hopefully better.

Ruby Jewel, Death came first. Page Wands was before if it's relevant.

Yes, it would be quite relevant. I see everything in a tarot spread as relevant, including sequence, and what cards come before and after because there's a story to be uncovered. With the Page of Wands, it could all be about a message of great consequence, something transformative. I might consider this to be a loss of something in your life that will have a transformative effect. Something karmic as Judgment says to me, your karma is now "paid in full."

katep

Ruby Jewel, thank you, I like the sound of karma being settled though the Page seems very slight in the face of the Majors so I wonder if Death and Judgement are a direct consequence of the message/news?

Ruby Jewel

katep said:
Ruby Jewel, thank you, I like the sound of karma being settled though the Page seems very slight in the face of the Majors so I wonder if Death and Judgement are a direct consequence of the message/news?

The Page has its role as the messenger....which is not to be discounted. Even Zeus took Mercury very seriously. (laugh). I just get the sense from these cards that they are saying there will be a message regarding the ending of an issue as indicated by the Death card. But, the ending is a necessary one that will set you free by your rising to the call of Judgment and moving on into a new cycle.You obviously had a karmic debt due, and with these two cards, it is paid.

katep

That's true enough. I wonder if it is literally news or message or if it could more figuratively mean 'getting the message'. Certainly hope this pays off at least some of my karmic dents!

Ruby Jewel

katep said:
That's true enough. I wonder if it is literally news or message or if it could more figuratively mean 'getting the message'. Certainly hope this pays off at least some of my karmic dents!

I think the fact that it is the Page of Wands instead of, say, the Page of Swords, that it indicates there will be a soft element to it rather than a cutting and painful edge. Perhaps you are the Page of Wands...a rather nice fellow who lives his passions and falls in love too easily....with the Judgment card, you will grow. As Gibran says, love is for our pruning as well as our growth.

katep

Possibly, my instinct is to see it as getting the message or maybe the communication of my choice. But both interpretations make sense