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Origins of Kabbalah


Quote:
Originally Posted by eugim
Again Venicebard hear Gershom Scholem about this topic.
Yes, it is about the only point on which I have the audacity to disagree with Scholem; but he simply did not have all the facts. (In fact, rabbinical knowledge of the Hebrew alphabet itself -- the meanings of its letters and letter-shapes -- has lapsed terribly, sad to say, perhaps from ignoring other alphabets (that is, from lack of comparative study).
Quote:
6-We can find Plato thoughts even before Plato because Plato as others saw the common points of religion meeting.(THE ONE FIRE )
Of course, for Plato was much concerned with eternal truths.
Quote:
Well Venicebard, I m from Alchemy "INNER ALCHEMY" side and my vision of Tarot it just "MINE" not yours or that you want to decreed and after all I don t say the Card " Symbolizes" etc...
You and I approach tarot from a similar perspective and so can perhaps learn a great deal from each other: mine too is the perspective of the 'inner alchemy'.
Quote:
How much knowledge you FOUND for say " it symbolizes "
Don t you think that may be just may be,symbol meaning comes after a deep insight about the images cards of course with a very heavy background of historic image evidence of the decks ?
There is also the internal evidence of the trumps themselves: their order, their imagery, the fact that they reflect the nature of the atom-types of matching atomic number, the fact that when put together with Irish tree-calendar and the stipulations of Sefer Yetzirah they unfold the very basis of Hermetic science and show it to be intertwined with deep knowledge of nature and her forms (including chemistry and particle physics), all lead to a conclusion other than the 'conventional wisdom'. However, I have seemingly not convinced any (or many, at any rate) here of any of this, so your skepticism is in good company.
Quote:
Then we could be have more qualification to say " that card means ..."
Well, dominion and servitude are actually part of the image, are they not, as opposed to simply an interpretation of the image: horses serve driver, who has dominion over them. This is mere fact, not interpretation, as I see it.
Quote:
So you when say " THAT IS " the card meaning looks somewhat too much EASY conclusions ...
I'll grant you that I sometimes state ideas too imperiously. But there is nothing 'easy' about the conclusions I've reached: they are based on three-and-a-half decades of painstaking research and thought in attempting to reconstruct the actual reasoning behind tarot and Kabbalah both. The latter (i.e. reconstruction of its original teachings, kept secret and since lost) I have encapsulated in a 300-page book (down from 400 pages), which now even includes a complete parsing of the meanings of word-roots behind the vocabulary of the Bible (based on the idea its authors were trained 'bards', meaning Hebrew poets), which tends to reinforce conclusions many of which were reached long before.
Quote:
9-Here at the forum there are people like LES MARSEILLES,JMD and LE PENDV without any EASY conclusions.
Yes, it is largely for their built-in skepticism that I respect them greatly!

Carry on.
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eugim  eugim is offline
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Helo Venicebard:
I really missed you reply.
Not because would be a chance to us be agree,but for your sincere passion.
I could be also and too and sometimes very sarcastic (Irish roots)
You re right.I made a review and the Sepher ha Bahir born in Occitane region in France in 1180 close to Cathars times and then went to Spain.
The point is I believed the version that Sefarad was Spain since ancient times and then I went to linked Abraham Abulafia with his Master Baruch Togarmi to Abulafia in Spain.

Of course Kabbalah is also an Inner Alchemy as is Sufi or Zen as just few examples.All this ways are differents ways but common ends to find the INNER FIRE.
What I am sure you ll be agree with me that all they are,if the person has a deep and true heart,so no that present day wave of "Fashion Tarot.Alchemy or Kaballah or I Ching".
I mean no that whimsical and clumsy Madonna "attempt to".
I know and see your serious approach to find the ONE FIRE.
But leave a place to others to disagree not with Kabbalah but with your too much strong "Black or White ".Could you ?

I must be honest with you.I disliked very much your n'est ce pas? and your Shalom end post.
Were too unnecesary ironic since I saw your previous posts and you never you ended as this.
So I sended to you my R.I.P. (Sarcastic )
To be honest I didn t yet found the historic fact source of your Celtic-Hebrew connection.I could be your best warrior if you prove me.
I say it sincerely...

Returning to Tarot and Kabbalah I sustain that Kabbalah is a Neoplatonic attempt to find cross common point of view.(Alexandria School /I remember Filon now )
In regards to I said that there at that time was the last opportunity to cross Mind Lights I didn t restricted to Kabbalah but to the lastly attempt to find a common point of view of The One Spirit between Early Christians (Origenes) and Hebrews(Filon) and Muslims before the barbarian fire of the year 391 after Christ.
I again quote what Pico did to "christianized" Kabbalah as Scholem said.
So for me the roots of the true Kabbalah were too much distorted at for example the time of Visconti Tarot born.(And so what we could say about Tarot of Marseilles ? )
That s why I mentioned Pico because since him to ours days all refer to Cabala not Kabbalah.(That s for Tarot and Alchemy also)
See for example the Count of Gabalis or Fulcanelli /Vulcano Hellios.
In regards to Levi.../ Why he named Shin LE MAT ?
You are a serious searcher ...
Understand now why I said that s Levi irrespected Kabbalah ?
And that s why I said that Kabbalah absolutely doesnt has any conection with Tarot but Cabala has and too much.
So Tarot was before Kabbalah because as wrongly and clumsy showed it Levi in " Dogme et rituel de la haute magie " he claimed to have the Key.
Because set the error since his days to ours days.And all the newagers believe that BIG error.
But Venicebard that s the Big error and Big Crossroad...
Levi opened an error way to this day which follows the newcomers newagers.
He was irrespect with Kabbalah and very too much with Tarot.

Now I can expect said to you Shalom !

From the Center of my Fire Heart, my Friendly Love ...

Eugim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eugim
I must be honest with you.I disliked very much your n'est ce pas? and your Shalom end post.
Were too unnecesary ironic since I saw your previous posts and you never you ended as this.
So I sended to you my R.I.P. (Sarcastic )
You evidently ascribe to me motives I do no possess (and sarcasms aimed at me I tend to ignore unless based on some actual error I have made).
Quote:
To be honest I didn t yet found the historic fact source of your Celtic-Hebrew connection.I could be your best warrior if you prove me.
I say it sincerely...
In that case, I shall return with a bit more time and try to lay out some of the evidence for you: thank you for being interested.
Quote:
So Tarot was before Kabbalah because as wrongly and clumsy showed it Levi in " Dogme et rituel de la haute magie " he claimed to have the Key.
Because set the error since his days to ours days.And all the newagers believe that BIG error.
But Venicebard that s the Big error and Big Crossroad...
Levi opened an error way to this day which follows the newcomers newagers.
He was irrespect with Kabbalah and very too much with Tarot.
The fact that Levi saw the same number of trumps as letters and erred, AND PARADED HIS ERROR AS POSSESSION OF THE KEY, does not mean EITHER that there IS no link between trumps and letters or that there IS no key... merely that he had failed to find either. It is as if we were to throw away the legitimate disproving of Einsteinian relativity (by Petr Beckmann and by the light from binary stars) because some early on who objected to it failed to get all their ducks in a row.
Quote:
Now I can expect said to you Shalom !

From the Center of my Fire Heart, my Friendly Love ...

Eugim
I see all beings as ultimately united in a single goal: Upright Sentience (Adam Qadmon), which we humans unfortunately only approximate (and rather poorly at that).
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Hello Venicebard:
1-I will wait with respect the Celtic/Hebrew fact history source.
2-I m interested nevertheless and may be at last not be agree.
Because just for me isn t a matter of be or not.Its only knows another point of viiew,,you know
I ll go far.I could appreciate more for your strong point of view but not be agree In the whole sense.
Here and to want to put a start point ahead (So returning to the thread) I want to distinguish between History fact stream source of Tarot (A) and -History of Tarot as itself (B)

- : For me the were two men who established two lines of thought ahead


A-Marsilio Ficino / Alexandrian School
B--Pico della Mirandola /Christianized Kabbalah

But I mentioned you an Hebrew Filon who precisely tried to found the center common point between many Spiritual Sources.
So on the way of Filon I m agree that s a common "Ourselves Mountain to Climb"
Origenes did it as Plato before .
Sincerely I don t mind which place others choose to fix theirs star point.
For me I and I think you also,the point is to find all of the people at the summit at once (As One)

But brother I honestly dont think people want it just a little... (Too much work ? )

"I see all beings as ultimately united in a single goal: Upright Sentience (Adam Qadmon), which we humans unfortunately only approximate (and rather poorly at that)."

So I m agree and that is why I strongly pointed that s no matter if you think that Tarot has a Kabbalah source.I agree we can reach the mountain without knows each other (literally).
I must be honest with you.For me has an Alexandria fact connection / Filon(for example) / With an obvious nexus between Hebrew belief and Greek.
Why ?
Because he went there to find the ONLY COMMON FIRE
PS// ENGLISH COST ME TOO MUCH BELIEVE ME ...


Eugim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eugim
Hello Venicebard:
1-I will wait with respect the Celtic/Hebrew fact history source.
I do not know if what I can offer is what you want, because it is internal evidence more than 'historical record', though the former for me is the stronger of the two (since historical records can be falsified).

First, and most striking: the paths on the Tree as given by modern Hermetic Kabbalah has the following letters feed into 6-Tiferet (middle Sefirah): gimel-heh-zayin-yod-lamedh-nun-samekh-ayin. These happen to be the scorpio (G-ivy, mid-autumn) of the Cauldron (of seven doubles), followed by scorpio-through-aries of the Egg (of twelve simples) -- the inner side of the vessel or zodiac -- followed by the vowel of spring, O-ayin-furze, representing the volatility of mercury causing its vapors to engulf spring (upper half of outer vessel) from where vessel is heated (leo), building out into nature the result of the development up the inner side to aries. Moreover: heh and zayin feed into 6 from 2 and 3, respectively, the numbers of their bardic counterparts E and I (yod is bardic doubled I, mistletoe, since it hovers above the line as mistletoe does the ground). And as these are the numbers of air and water (2nd and 3rd elements, respectively), of which E and I are the breaths, it is interesting then that yod feeds into 6 from 4, the number of earth, since yod is bardic Ii, the earth breath. And lamedh feeds in from 5, digital sum of L-rowan's bardic number (14) which when added to 6 makes 11: L's actual sign is 11th, aquarius, not the 7th, where alef-bet order puts it. Nun feeds in from 7, which added to 6 makes 13, N-ash's bardic number. Samekh is the path underneath 6, as befits a 'support', while ayin feeds into 6 from 8, Mercury's number, since it is the base of mercury's column in the vessel.

I realize terms such as "mercury's column in the vessel" and "Egg" and "Cauldron" are not common terms, but they describe aspects of the most inner layer of both Hermetic science and Qabbalah (where these two converge).

Further evidence is in the corrected order of simples about the round made possible by correlation with the bardic tree-calendar and analysis of the underlying phonetic organizational principle: samekh is most certainly head aries, not thighs sagittary; cheyt is most certainly shoulders-and-arms gemini, not breasts cancer; teyt is obviously the legs folded under one while meditating -- libra the loins (what is beneath us when seated) -- as is intermediate mem (M-vine is the calendar's libra); lamedh is arms swinging while walking seen from above, as befits back-of-the-shoulders aquarius (in closed zodiac or vessel), since lemedh means 'learning' and thus the shape is a child learning to walk seen from above; and so on.

Further evidence is in the fact that the trumps of the Tarot of Marseilles follow bardic numeration in depicting (quite accurately) the symbolism of the tree-letters, yet the tarot as a whole embodies the Kabbalistic world-model: 22 letters, 10 Sefirot (numbers) throughout 4 worlds (suits), and 4-letter Name (court cards) in those same worlds. Moreover, the fact that there are three male and one female court cards reflects the fact that by the bardic analysis and correlation mentioned above yod and heh are on the male (inner) side of the vessel (at scorpio and capricorn) while vav is on the female (outer) side (at cancer, vav's old Semitic version showing a breast pouring forth milk).

Evidence of the fundamental kinship between Judaic and Keltic traditions resides in such things as Sefer Yetzirah stating that shin is the head, mem the 'bellly', and alef the trunk linking the two, since the tree-calendar places S-willow at early spring (aries the head), M-vine at the autumn equinox (libra the loins), and A-fir at yuletide (winter solstice, halfway between, which is capricorn the mid-back in the closed zodiac). Or qof being shaped like fruit-with-stem or fruit-being-cut-into in old Semitic (which survives in our Q) because it is Q-apple in the tree-alphabet. (Evidence of kinship of many ancient alphabets to bardic tradition exists in the shapes of their letters.) Or square-Hebrew yod being suspended above the line to stand for mistletoe or loranthus, which roots in trees not soil. Evidence of this sort (which I could go on about for some time).

Evidence of bardic lore's penetration into the Languedoc is sparse but hinges on such things as the recurring theme of the seasons -- expecially spring -- in Troubadour poetry, as well as specific things like a poem by the first Troubadour mentioning hawthorn next to a description of hail, 'hail' being the runic name for H-hawthorn.

I will return to the subject if you wish to hear more, but I am certain many eyes have glazed over by now, so I'll move on.
Quote:
- : For me the were two men who established two lines of thought ahead


A-Marsilio Ficino / Alexandrian School
B--Pico della Mirandola /Christianized Kabbalah

But I mentioned you an Hebrew Filon who precisely tried to found the center common point between many Spiritual Sources.
So on the way of Filon I m agree that s a common "Ourselves Mountain to Climb"
Origenes did it as Plato before .
I didn't understand all of this, but I should point out that as I see things, Christianity in Britain was essentially of a Gnostic character until its takeover by Rome (completed by the end of the first millennium), and gnosis is what Plato was gettin at. The ultimate source is Truth itself, which Gnostics, Plato, and no doubt some neoplatonists grasped (in part or in toto). But the nuts and bolts of the science of Qabbalah (whence came Hermetic science, or alchemy) has remained secret. (It has been a difficult process to reconstruct it, but the payoff is extraordinary!). The Hermetico-Gnostic writings of Alexandria embody much of the basic Hermetic world-view of course (and I found them a valuable source), but the nuts-and-bolts are the letters themselves, the numbers bards assigned them, and the atomic numbers by which nature expresses them.
Quote:
I must be honest with you.For me has an Alexandria fact connection / Filon(for example) / With an obvious nexus between Hebrew belief and Greek.
Why ?
Because he went there to find the ONLY COMMON FIRE
Who is 'he'?
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eugim  eugim is offline
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Hello Venicebard:
Thanks for your answer first.
May be I will never feel agree with you but is useful know other point of view.

Regards the link between the 22 Hebrew letters and the 22 atouts or trumps of the Tarot of Marseilles,I want to mention what follow now.

1-We have 21 trumps named and 21 numbered of 22
2-One name someone or something that exists,nevertheless it stay or not physically here.
For example LE MAT IS unnumbered but named,so for me is out of the cards sequence (the others 21).He hasn t a place relates to the others cards.
3-One number something or someone because is physically here so number is give it a place regards to others.
For example XIII is not named but exist.I think the intention could be link with that evoke someone is summon him.
Surely Death has a place here on Earth...
4-So for me Tarot has a structure of 21 + 1 (Le Mat) and not 22
That s why I couldn t link Tarot with Kabbalah
But respect your view as those of others here.

Regards to Who is 'he'? ,I refer to Filon (Hebrew phillosopher)as an example of the rich syncretism took place in Alejandria School.

I have clear that you are looking for the thruth as I also,but from another side of the same mountain.Finally both are trying to reach the summit.

PS/Excuse me please my poor English.

My best regards to you,

Eugim
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eugim  eugim is offline
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Venicebard:
I forgot answer you when you said

"But the nuts and bolts of the science of Qabbalah (whence came Hermetic science, or alchemy) has remained secret"

Alchemy didn t came from Qabbalah.The origin of Alchemy could trace as far as China were it born 4.500 years before Christ.
But in the III century a.c. with Taoism,Alchemy took strong place.


Eugim
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eugim  eugim is offline
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Venicebard:
With relate to your "Who is he?" I mean Filon de Alexandria or Philo.

You can see more of him here
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...&letter=P#1076

The site has also a Cabala section.

Eugim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eugim
Venicebard:
First of all I don t see Neoplatonism as a sort of hodge-podge.
When I refer to Neoplatonism I allways mentioned the School of Alexandria.
I think of that as 'Hermetic' or 'Gnostic': but I admit to some ignorance where Neoplatonism is concerned, and being an utter Platonist myself (as I believe any true Gnostic must be), I am not opposed in spirit to Neoplatonism. It is just that those who discuss Kabbalah for instance and attribute some of it to Neoplatonism seem to mean a sort of speculative hodge-podge . . .
Quote:
I could be agree with if you refer to the Neoplatonism of the Renaissance,and surley it was.
. . . judging, yes, primarily based on this era.

Cheers.

P.S. I'll have to look up the Bodhran.
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