planets and elements Question/Help needed

lucifall

I am trying to make a correspondence table of the ruling planets/ starsigns and the elements connected wth the major and the minor arcana. It is based on the 36 decans of the minor arcana. Coming to the elements of the planets a problem arise: Last week I found a table which mentioned it was according to the golden dawn and i noted the elements in my Major Arcana Table.
Unfortunately i cannot find the website anymore and now i found different Golden Dawn atrributions as the ones i work with, in my table.

I use now:
Mercury Air
Luna Water
Venus Earth
Jupiter Water
Mars Fire
Sol Fire
Saturn Earth

Is there someone familiar with the Elemental Golden Dawn Attributions for the planets? I am curious which attributions you are familiar with.
Please help me out my confusion :)

Love and Light
Lucifall
 

Grigori

lucifall said:
I use now:
Mercury Air
Luna Water
Venus Earth
Jupiter Water
Mars Fire
Sol Fire
Saturn Earth

I'm not sure if there is a standard elemental attribution for the planets, I think perhaps they fall slightly outside of that definition as they're not really elemental. It's kind of like lining up the pentagram with the hexagram, doesn't quite fit. Folks usually seem to assign an element based on the sign/s the planets rule, or overall feeling, or perhaps the tree of life/GQ grade structure.

e.g. Mercury is Airey, in that it rules Gemini, Watery in that its related to the Sphere of Hod which is Water grade in the GD system (Practicus), and Earthy in that it rules Virgo. But out of these options, Air seems to fit the best in the context of the tarot card, so its likely used there more often.

Luna is usually Water as the ruler of Cancer (though may be given Air sometimes due to Yesod/Theoricus).

Venus usually given Earth (but may be given fire Netzach)

Jupiter rules Sagitarrius and also Pisces, though as I understand it as a planet governs rain so likely Water is more often thought of than Fire.

Mars I've seen fairly universally as Fire. I think because of the masculine association.

Sol could be Fire, but also Air for Tipareth.

Saturn I think is more often Earth, especially in connection to tarot, as The Universe/The World card is attributed to both Earth and Saturn.
 

lucifall

planet/elements in Waite's time during creation of the rider Waite tarot

Thanks a lot for your answer which shine a light on my confusion.

When I see your correspondences you mention the same ones as i did, added by the elements of (the other) starsigns ruled by the planet/or element connected with the sefiroth.

Still I am curious where I found that scheme on the internet with the mentioned elements attached to the planets. It was a complete scheme of tarotcards with their planetary and zodiacal correspondences with the elements (there was also mentioned it were GD correspondences)

Most curious am I in the following:
Which attributions in Waite's time were used by the Golden Dawn.

Light
Lucifall
 

Grigori

I'm not sure that they really would have considered the planetary as belonging to an element. The GD used rituals based on the pentagram when dealing with the 4 elements, a point for each element plus an extra one for spirit. When dealing with the planets they would use the hexagram, a point for each of the 6 planets with the sun in the centre. They were really different levels in my understanding.

If you want their tarot attributions though, you'll get the basic ones in Book &.
http://athenaeum.asiya.org/Book_T.pdf

If you want a lot more detail, the Crowley's 777 is the next place to look.
http://hermetic.com/crowley/libers/liber777.pdf

Hope that helps :)
 

lucifall

Stage cards and elements is there a Code?

thx for the info Grigori,

I already checked those websites. They don't mention elemental attributions to the planets.

I will use the correspondences in my first post and work this out in the 12 stage cards of the RWS. (Stage cards with Double lines,only)

Page of cups Earth-Water
2 of Cups Venus-Capricorn Earth-Water

2 of Coins Jupiter-Capricorn Water-Earth
4 of Coins Sun-Capricorn Fire -Earth
6 of Coins Moon-Taurus Water-Earth
8 of Coins Sun-Virgo Fire -Earth

4 of wands Venus-Aries Earth - Fire
9 of Wands Moon-Sagittarius Water- Fire
10 of Wands Saturn-Sagitt. Earth - Fire

2 of Swords Moon-Libra Water-Air
5 of Swords Venus-Aquarius Earth-Air
7 of Swords Moon-Aquarius Water-Air

No Air-planet (Mercury) involved. Mars neither.
No pisces / lion and gemini

The scheme above appears to me as a mirror of the elements within the suits.
That within the stage cards, Real Earthly.....Stage.....
Air Above, not involved...

WHY?


Anyone an Idea?

Light lucifall
 

Scion

Hey Lucifall,

I've been writing and researching quite a lot about this topic, so I'm always interested to test the ideas.

The trouble you're having stems from the fact that the Golden Dawn (with limited sources) was pretty rocky when it came to astrological research. A lot of material wasn't available/popular in the esoteric circles of the late 19th century, and as Theosophy transformed astrology it lopped off great bleeding chunks of the underlying muscle of the Queen of the Sciences.

So whatever elemental associations the Golden Dawn halfheartely credited to the 7 planets are more vestigial than purposive in their system... they're holdovers from older books/astrologers who knew quite a bit more about the logic behind the attributions than the GD knew what to do with.

Your attributions were:
lucifall said:
Mercury Air
Luna Water
Venus Earth
Jupiter Water
Mars Fire
Sol Fire
Saturn Earth

The important thing to remember is that element is an expresion of the four conditions: Hot / Cold / Dry / Wet... Expressed as cominations in each element:
Fire = Hot and Dry (which as it mostens transitions to...)
Air = Hot and Wet (which cools to become...)
Water = Cold and Wet (which dries to become...)
Earth = Cold and Dry (which as it heats up becomes...)
Also, each quality was expressive of a mode of behavior... Heat is active; cold is passive. Wetness connects things and dryness divides things.

There's a cyclical balamnced quality to them, a blending. So it's not cookie cutter assignable though sunsign astrology would have it so. For best results, look to people who earned their livings predicting things. :)

Lilly, last and arguably greatest of the 17th century astrologers would have characterized the planets thus:

SATURN: Cold and Dry (being far removed from the heat of the Sun) and moyst Vapours, Melancholick, Earthly, Masculine, the greater Infortune... (But also note that he rules the Airy triplicity by Day)
JUPITER: Temperately Hot and Moyst, Aiery, Sanguine, the greater Fortune (But he rules the Fiery Triplicity by night)
MARS: in nature Hot and Dry, cholerick and fiery, the lesser Infortune (But he "governeth wholly the Watry Triplicity" day and night although there is a lot of debate about this)
SUN: naturally Hot, Dry, but more temperate then Mars (and rules the Fiery Triplicity by Day)
VENUS: Feminine Planet, temperately Cold and Moyst, Nocturnal, the lesser Fortune (but rules Earthly Triplicity by day... and later authors mark her sanguine/airy in humour)
MERCURY: We may not call him either Masculine or Feminine, for he is either the one or other as joyned to any Planet; for if in Conjunction with a Masculine Planet, he becomes Masculine; if with a Feminine, then Feminine, but of his own nature he is cold and dry, and therefore Melancholly; with the good he is good, with the evil Planets ill. (but he rules Aery triplicity by night)
MOON: Cold, Moyst and Flegmatique (but rules Earthly Triplicity by night)

Your list is close to the old model for about half of them... For classical astrology (which is the astrology the Golden Dawn was trying to use), Jupiter is Airy, Mercury is Earthy (with some wateriness), and Venus is either Airy or Watery (depending on the millenium), but definitely wet.

And of course, there is dissension over the 1000s of years that Astrology evolved. Fundamental character of the planets seems to have boiled down to the following...

SATURN: Cold/dry ( but mostly COLD, because he ends things... so not just earth but the chilly side of it because he's far from the Sun)
JUPITER: Hot/Wet (but mostly HOT, so this is the active part of air)
MARS: Hot/Dry (but mostly DRY, because Mars divides things)
SUN: Hot/Dry (but mostly HOT, because he is the active invigorating part of fire)
VENUS: Hot/Wet for later astrologers or in Renaissance: moderately Cold/Wet (but in either case mostly WET, because she connects things)
MERCURY: he is Watery… but considered Cold/Dry?! (and NO dominant characteristic: he's a total chameleon)
MOON: Cold/Wet (but mostly COLD because she's passive)

So it's not just that each planet has an elemental characteristic, but rather that they fall along a spectrum of qualities which they share with elements. But then again, they have their own natures AND they rule over certain domains which in turn have THEIR own characteristics (the triplicities, signs, etc).

The planets are more like characters with foibles than pegs for slots. Trying to boil the planet down simply and directly to a single element doesn't actually depict the planet or the element with any degree of clarity or coherence. (which is why Fire works for both Sun and Mars but is Hot in the 1st and dry in the 2nd). The ways in which those elemental characteristics of the 7 wanderers works inside the decans is even more complicated for just those reasons... because blend of qualities becomes exponentially complex.

In any case, I hope you'll find some of this helpful in navigating.

Scion
 

Ashtaroot

Thank you Scion so much for this, It felt like a lightbulb aha!
 

lucifall

Thanks Scion, for this information!

You gave me food for a lot of Thoughts........
First Time, It has been so clearly explained (For me indeed!) You shed light!

Maybe you want to read my Thread about Waite's stage cards and the planets/elements and post your point of vieuw....

Now i have read your post above, i have new clues to rework it..........


Love and Light
Lucifall