Aeon418
External deity seperate from the Self.spiral said:
Thoth a Pagan themed deck?
kwaw
Aeon418 said:
I'm going on memory, may have been establish. Will look it up when I get home tonight.
Well how do 'Pagans' view the Gods? You may find among them as many interpretations similar in variation as you have ascribed to Book of the Law above. I have known pagans who view the Gods as existent beings, others who consider them as hypostasis of cosmic forces as did the neo-platonic theological apologists, others who view them as symbolic embodiments of archetypal forms within the human psyche; many if not most I've met while recognising 'many' gods yet view these many as but aspects of the 'one'. So as you have said of interpreters of Liber Al so we may say of neo-pagans that they are theistic, atheistic, polytheistic, monotheistic, etc, etc.
Kwaw
kwaw
Aeon418 said:
All knowledge and all 'things' may be said to be rooted in the literary conventions of language. 'You' are a literary convention, am I too assume therefore you have no existence outside of myself? Possibly, some philosophers have suggested so. Nonetheless, in terms of practical value and experience, even if you don't it is probably better to act as if you do.
All words, all names, are a symbolic convention. In his writings Crowley describes the gods, spirits, demons, angels variously as personifications of cosmic forces or as embodiments of archetypal forces within the psyche of man. He is not original in this, it can all be found in the writings of pagan philosophers of antiquity. At other times he is insistent upon the reality of praeternatural intelligences as individual and separate to the mind of man. In other places, like the Buddha, he says he doesn't know, it doesn’t matter and he doesn't care. Whatever the true nature of the Gods, the best way to treat them from the point of view of theugical magick is as if they do exist. Read the intro to Liber O.
Kwaw
Aeon418
kwaw, I know exactly what you saying. The trouble is "Pagan" is a blanket/catch-all term for a huge variety of belief systems. Before anything can be called Pagan we have to define what we mean by the word and the context in which we are using it. Already we have had to resort to definitions by way of archetypes. Not all Pagans view their deities as archetypes. And yet, everything is lumped into one basket.
And then we wonder why we don't know what each other is talking about.
And then we wonder why we don't know what each other is talking about.
kwaw
Aeon418 said:
As I said at the beginning:
"Paganism is a very broad term open to several interpretations. Within certain qualifications I would say Yes, BoT could certainly be termed a pagan themed deck."
Kwaw
Aeon418
Fair enough. What are your "certain qualifications". I take it you mean a narrower definition of the word.kwaw said:
inanna_tarot
wow, this thread has gone a little over my head hehe. But its good because I'm learning. I understand that debate has been caused over what is pagan which doesnt help in working out of the thoth is a pagan deck lol.
From my understanding of the Thoth and my pagan path I would say that it isn't pagan themed, but the Thelemic philosophy that is the over view of the deck means that it can be interpreted as such.
Pagans believe in the cycles of birth death and rebirth , that is very important in the thoth.
Pagans believe in the importance of balance of polarity, though some take this balance to different levels than others. Example, Gardnerian's wiccans may only be bothered with physical polarity ie male and female working couples, Male high priest balanced to female High Priest.
However, I would suggest that a lot of pagans see polarity as more indepth. I see polarity of qualities, of the inner masculine and feminine and how they can unite in me. Although not exactly part of thelemic tradition, it works well with the Thoth and the balance of elemental dignities etc.
From my ponderings I would say that there are overlaps, making it have pagan currents that would make some of the thoughts behind the cards 'pagan friendly'. Obviously some pagans are more ready to accept those than others (Crowley being the 'big bad' n all, but we know different ) . Thoth will always be defiantely Thelemic and nothing more, but it has something for everyone for it is almost a pictorial representation of Thelema, and Thoth is the tool for uniting with the HGA is open to everyone, has some common ground with everything.
Thank you Kwaw and Aeon for your fasinating posts! Keep them coming
Blessings,
Sezo
x
From my understanding of the Thoth and my pagan path I would say that it isn't pagan themed, but the Thelemic philosophy that is the over view of the deck means that it can be interpreted as such.
Pagans believe in the cycles of birth death and rebirth , that is very important in the thoth.
Pagans believe in the importance of balance of polarity, though some take this balance to different levels than others. Example, Gardnerian's wiccans may only be bothered with physical polarity ie male and female working couples, Male high priest balanced to female High Priest.
However, I would suggest that a lot of pagans see polarity as more indepth. I see polarity of qualities, of the inner masculine and feminine and how they can unite in me. Although not exactly part of thelemic tradition, it works well with the Thoth and the balance of elemental dignities etc.
From my ponderings I would say that there are overlaps, making it have pagan currents that would make some of the thoughts behind the cards 'pagan friendly'. Obviously some pagans are more ready to accept those than others (Crowley being the 'big bad' n all, but we know different
) . Thoth will always be defiantely Thelemic and nothing more, but it has something for everyone for it is almost a pictorial representation of Thelema, and Thoth is the tool for uniting with the HGA is open to everyone, has some common ground with everything. Thank you Kwaw and Aeon for your fasinating posts! Keep them coming
Blessings,
Sezo
x
spiral
I'd say that's a generalisation re: the pagan position on 'gods'. It's very difficult to have this kind of conversation (or any other kind, for that matter) without bringing personal interpretation into the issue. Since the word 'pagan' is ill-defined then this personal interpretation plays too large a role for discussion to be possible.Aeon418 said:
If we accept pagan to be the broad term that it currently seems to be then it is fairly straightforward to come up with arguments which support Thoth being a pagan-themed deck. If you narrow the definition (by assertions such as "pagans believe that the gods exist seperately from self") then it's perfectly possible to argue that Thoth falls outside it. So really we're not discussing Thoth at all, but the definition of "pagan".
I think we can agree that it's a Thelemic deck. I still say the original question is flawed (not intended as a slight on you, inanna). Personally I dislike the term "pagan" and don't particularly associate myself with it - it's rather too nebulous.
Ross G Caldwell
If you had to draw a line between "pagan-themed" and "non-pagan themed" decks, I would put Thoth definitely in the "pagan-themed" category.
First, it comes from Crowley. He wanted to "restore paganism in a purer form". I'm quoting from memory - I believe he said this was his mission, remembered from a previous life when he met with a council of illuminates who vowed to reincarnate with various missions.
Secondly, we have to remember that in Crowley's time, there was no organized neo-paganism. Paganism was something you read about, and tried to live if you wanted. The main thing for wannabe neo-pagans was to find the essence of the pagan philosophy, gleaned from syncretic accounts like Frazer's in "The Golden Bough".
Third, Thelema (as Aeon appropriately points out) is not Paganism; Thelema is a word which sums up a philosophy. In Liber Aleph (IIRC) he compares it to the Christian Agape (Love) - or is that "INRI"? - , the Buddha's "Anatta" (No soul), and four others (7 words of seven great prophets). You could find out surely just by typing a few key words in Google. In this way, Thelema is to paganism what Plotinus's Theurgy was to paganism - a philosophy within a framework, which used the symbols of the framework to gain true Self-and-transcendental knowledge. Anyway, I think Crowley would have said (and probably did somewhere) that paganism was more conducive to the aims of Thelema than any of the dogmatic religions.
Last, I have the strong impression that Crowley saw himself as a pagan. If you read "The World's Tragedy", it is a passionate plea for the revival of a pagan way of life - which he understood as seeing life as a dance of joy and pleasure, however hard sometimes, rather than as a "veil of tears", which is how Christianity normally sees it. I believe that Crowley really wanted to convey this sense of life to the world, a pagan way of life as he saw it, even more than he wanted to convey and teach the difficult art of Magick and the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel.
It is my belief that Crowley enjoyed life in this way, and that the reason he always had friends was because he lived it this way (this is the reason he had enemies too).
First, it comes from Crowley. He wanted to "restore paganism in a purer form". I'm quoting from memory - I believe he said this was his mission, remembered from a previous life when he met with a council of illuminates who vowed to reincarnate with various missions.
Secondly, we have to remember that in Crowley's time, there was no organized neo-paganism. Paganism was something you read about, and tried to live if you wanted. The main thing for wannabe neo-pagans was to find the essence of the pagan philosophy, gleaned from syncretic accounts like Frazer's in "The Golden Bough".
Third, Thelema (as Aeon appropriately points out) is not Paganism; Thelema is a word which sums up a philosophy. In Liber Aleph (IIRC) he compares it to the Christian Agape (Love) - or is that "INRI"? - , the Buddha's "Anatta" (No soul), and four others (7 words of seven great prophets). You could find out surely just by typing a few key words in Google. In this way, Thelema is to paganism what Plotinus's Theurgy was to paganism - a philosophy within a framework, which used the symbols of the framework to gain true Self-and-transcendental knowledge. Anyway, I think Crowley would have said (and probably did somewhere) that paganism was more conducive to the aims of Thelema than any of the dogmatic religions.
Last, I have the strong impression that Crowley saw himself as a pagan. If you read "The World's Tragedy", it is a passionate plea for the revival of a pagan way of life - which he understood as seeing life as a dance of joy and pleasure, however hard sometimes, rather than as a "veil of tears", which is how Christianity normally sees it. I believe that Crowley really wanted to convey this sense of life to the world, a pagan way of life as he saw it, even more than he wanted to convey and teach the difficult art of Magick and the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel.
It is my belief that Crowley enjoyed life in this way, and that the reason he always had friends was because he lived it this way (this is the reason he had enemies too).
Aeon418
I think you've hit the nail squarely on the head there, spiral.spiral said:
