Swords and Wands associations... a different turn on the subject.

dream mage said:

...fire is more destructive than air...

Click to expand...

Have you ever ridden out a hurricane?

Likewise, it'd be hard to forge steel or sculpt glass or fire pottery *without* fire - if it has destructive potential "beyond air", it *certainly* has creative potential beyond air also.

Fire is the element of trasnsformation. This is both simple and profound.

Thanks guys... these are all interesting takes on the subject.

I agree about the hurricane statement... those things, as well as tornados, are very destructive.

but I some how cannot get over the fact that, though air can be more destructive, fire consumes. Most times, there is nothing left over. From what I understand about hurricanes (which, I admit, is very little) everything is demolished, but there still remains some vegitation-some resemblance of life. I have, however, seen the remains of a forest fire... there is nothing left but ash.

Personally, before I studied tarot, the idea of Swords/athames as a tool for Fire seemed to make sense to me. Then I started studying RWS and the doubts arrived. It's really hard for me to get rid of the Swords/Fire connection in my heart. I know that the coloration of the deck is more tied to the Air element. (blues, and whites)... but I contradict myself with the fact that the hotter fire is, the bluer the center, and fire has been known to burn white.

With the way that I'm approaching my tarot studies, I'm using alot more intuition and self realization than any other study I've done before. I'm getting great results for myself, but the more I study, the deeper the connection of Swords to Fire seems.

Then again, maybe I'm just being stubborn.

If you are just looking at the cards, concentrate on the courts for fire versus air. It's pretty clear with salamanders all over the King and Queen of wands and butterflies on the King and Queen of Swords.

For a good explanation of dagger (air) versus sword versus wand in magick, see "Modern Magick" by Donald Kraig page 149 where he explains the confusion Gardner's simplifications might have caused.

The Elements in a New Light

(Excuse please) I'm moving this post to it's own thread:

The Twos and The Elements - Aeclectic Tarot Forum
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=56221

Open-Minded

Here I'd like to follow dream mage's train of thought
and see what happens if we allow SWORDS as FIRE.

The water we see in almost all the Colman Smith pips
could be just the sort of thing a Tarot image reveals:
Contradiction within Unity ~ that old duality thing.

Water here might be the Challenge to a Fiery Sword,
the solidifying moment in the tempering process too.

And what happens if we allow WANDS as AIR then?
The breathing, fibrous cells of the wood actually live,
something anyone with a wood cutting board knows
is that wood has "memory" and will follow it's grains.

Kind of exciting... who'd like to try CUPS and those
PENTACLES... or do they remain unquestioned...?

Spirit

Here's what I found, way back when, and it works for me:

YANG
Big Yang is Fire
Little Yang is Air
YIN
Big Yin is Water
Little Yin is Earth

Now, with Yin & Yang, the "Bigs" and the "Littles" don't get along,
which is: Fire is opposite Water, and Air is opposite Earth.

But here's the amazing thing:
Big Yang Fire CAN get along with Big Yin Water,
when they have a "bridge" formed between them
by one of the Littles.

Fire to Air and then Water, or Earth to Fire to Air...

Then whichever symbols you choose to associate
with each element will work, because in the end,
they are all One, and that is Spirit...

~Fulgour

We have had a number of threads on this topic...

I like jmd's statement in this one:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=52961&highlight=suits+elements

And Fulgour....I totally agree...

whichever symbols you choose to associate
with each element will work

Click to expand...

That's pretty much where I come from as well....I'm going to hunt for one more older thread that had a great discussion on the topic as well...

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=35466&highlight=suits+elements

Ah...here's another:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=23149&highlight=suits+elements

And yet another....

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=8278&highlight=suits+elements

Hope these links are helpful, dream mage....it is a topic here that comes up quite often...

terri

Thank you tmgrl2 .... those links will be very helpful.

and Wizzle, my husband owns Modern Magic... I will be taking a look at that reference.. thank you.