Understanding & Responding to Thoth/Thoth-based Tarot Criticism - Advice?

I was doing some free readings for an online Wiccan school and received this feedback:

Now as a reader to a reader I hope you do not mind some constructive
criticism. The deck you used would probably lose a number of people that are
not familiar with tarot. Most people are more familiar with the symbolism of
decks that follow the RW protocol. People often prefer something they can
also connect to or see what you may have seen in the cards. In my reading
you also brought up the elementals "water & fire" Many people would not
understand what you are talking about. They want a reading and questions
answered but also want to be able to understand. When sending a reading one tries to eliminate anything unnecessary to the reading.

The deck in question was actually Liber T: Tarot of Stars Eternal, which actually has some pictures on it. While there were certain parts I do own with the criticism [not all stated here], how valid do you all think this piece is? It's kind of going "clunk" versus "click" for me.

Probie said:

I was doing some free readings for an online Wiccan school and received this feedback:

Now as a reader to a reader I hope you do not mind some constructive
criticism. The deck you used would probably lose a number of people that are
not familiar with tarot. Most people are more familiar with the symbolism of
decks that follow the RW protocol. People often prefer something they can
also connect to or see what you may have seen in the cards. In my reading
you also brought up the elementals "water & fire" Many people would not
understand what you are talking about. They want a reading and questions
answered but also want to be able to understand. When sending a reading one tries to eliminate anything unnecessary to the reading.

The deck in question was actually Liber T: Tarot of Stars Eternal, which actually has some pictures on it. While there were certain parts I do own with the criticism [not all stated here], how valid do you all think this piece is? It's kind of going "clunk" versus "click" for me.

Click to expand...

Well, to me some of it seems valid. The thing about water and fire. The person you are reading for does need to understand what you are saying, so any really obscure terminology could put a barrier to meaning.

However, the RWS is also based on the elements, so that seems to be criticism of your reading style rather than of the deck you are using.

And perhaps, if you feel that the criticism is valid, more clarity and common language or explanation is something you could work on.

But it seems to have little to do with the deck you are using, and that appears to be a separate point, and, as far as the quoted speaker is concerned, the fundamental point.
But it would seem to me that their opinion is based upon a couple of assumptions, firstly that someone who gets a reading likes to see a deck they are familiar with, and that they will be familiar with the RWS and secondly that a strange deck can put them off.
I do not really agree with either of these points, although it may, of course, be true for some.
Firstly a real tarot novice won't be familiar with any deck, secondly the Thoth imagery that the Liber T is based upon comes up often enough in the media for it to be quite familiar. And also, of course, it is a dangerous thing to put yourself into a strangers head and assume what they would be thinking. (Which I am about to do myself right now)

It would seem to me that who ever wrote that to you if giving their opinion of how they feel that tarot should be read. It may be that this is some kind of unwritten rule of the group, or just the belief of the individual.
You, of course, are free to do as you wish, but it may be that if you want to play in their playground you have to use their toys.

If it comes to this then it will be your decision what to do.

Lillie said:

But it seems to have little to do with the deck you are using, and that appears to be a separate point, and, as far as the quoted speaker is concerned, the fundamental point.

But it would seem to me that their opinion is based upon a couple of assumptions, firstly that someone who gets a reading likes to see a deck they are familiar with, and that they will be familiar with the RWS and secondly that a strange deck can put them off.

I do not really agree with either of these points, although it may, of course, be true for some.

Firstly a real tarot novice won't be familiar with any deck, secondly the Thoth imagery that the Liber T is based upon comes up often enough in the media for it to be quite familiar. And also, of course, it is a dangerous thing to put yourself into a strangers head and assume what they would be thinking. (Which I am about to do myself right now)

It would seem to me that who ever wrote that to you if giving their opinion of how they feel that tarot should be read. It may be that this is some kind of unwritten rule of the group, or just the belief of the individual.

You, of course, are free to do as you wish, but it may be that if you want to play in their playground you have to use their toys.

If it comes to this then it will be your decision what to do.

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Thank you for your kind words and penetrating analysis. All I knew was it went "clunk" so I went for some outside perspective. I also talked to someone at our local metaphysical shop who knows her stuff. Her comments were pretty much the same as yours. The conclusion seems to be a sophmoric comment that says more about the person than anything else. RWS uses just as much fire-water-earth-air talk as any other deck. In fact, they seem to be the big pushers/populizers of dignities!

I'm beginning to think the group, which uses the Intuitive School, may have forgotten the essential rule of that style - unrelenting self-work for your own self-actualization. I ran into this with pseudo-Rogerian/Client-Centered practitioners who didn't follow Carl Rogers in his exhausting & unrelenting self-analysis as the foundation for his work. It leads to a shallow product for the client/querent.

I'm starting to see the hand writing on the wall, "Mene, Mene, Tekel, Parsin..." (Aramaic paraphrase: "Weighed, weighed, divided, numbered").

I think there is something to think about in the using of elementals. For people who are not versed in the symbolism, it's best to either avoid those terms altogether or explain them in mundane terms when you use them. But I'm not sure I'd buy the advice to stick with an RWS-based deck. Do they expect a reading or a Tarot lesson? If the latter, then yes, use a deck the person is familiar with. But for readings, use what works for you. I met one reader who makes a point of using relatively obscure decks so that people with a mere smattering of Tarot knowledge aren't distractedly second-guessing her reading based on their passing familiarity with the cards being used.

David

Maskelyne said:

I think there is something to think about in the using of elementals. For people who are not versed in the symbolism, it's best to either avoid those terms altogether or explain them in mundane terms when you use them. But I'm not sure I'd buy the advice to stick with an RWS-based deck. Do they expect a reading or a Tarot lesson? If the latter, then yes, use a deck the person is familiar with. But for readings, use what works for you. I met one reader who makes a point of using relatively obscure decks so that people with a mere smattering of Tarot knowledge aren't distractedly second-guessing her reading based on their passing familiarity with the cards being used.

David

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Agreed, agreed. The biggest problem I have right now (after figuring out what to own from the criticism) is a reading presentation style. I need to figure out how much to share and how much is for me.

I'm getting the sense this is becoming like The Antique Road Show. Some of the people who bring in their stuff really do want to hear the expert appraiser say their spiel, it's the item that's important for them. However, there's also a distinct group that you can see in their face, "C'mon, c'mon, c'mon! Enough history already, what's the cash value? I got a cruise to take!"

Online readings, for me, are tough. In my day job, I'm a human services person and I do all those active listening techniques plus obsesses about body language and paralinguistics (tone, pacing, emphasis, pauses, etc.). In this format, I got a screen and it's mine.

With phone/F2F (face-to-face) you get some of this and can just go, "These two cards don't get along" and skip the fact that they're earth and air as well as the later has Venus in Scorpio and is on the 7th point (Netzach) & far down the Tree of Life - so isn't a happy little card to begin with!

But what I'm hearing is this, you don't tread on a reader's ineliable right [spelling?] to use whatever deck she/he wants to. "Do what thou wilt!"

Unalienable

I wonder whether this is one of those "schools" that believes the WS is the One True Deck and part of this criticism stems from using a WICKED deck ? (Because LiberT is Thoth based and we all know that Uncle Al imbued the Thoth with all kinds of evils....)

As I said elsewhere - I think a sitter doesn't need to be given all the esoteric background though. Not unless they ask. If you see something about me - fine. I don't actually care - as a sitter - if you got it from fire vs air or something. All I need to know from what you see is that I better go visit my granny and make my peace with her right now.

As a fellow reader - then sure, I'd be interested. There is a difference - and maybe you took the reader to reader thing too far for this school ?

Use whatever deck you like - and leave the school if they try and force you to go WS as that is none of their business ! - and try and focus on what someone who knows nothing of tarot can also "see" in the cards, if you see what I mean.

But watch not to analyse too far. Body language and the rest can be deceptive too..... Look at the cards, not the person, I'd say. I know all about picking up clues and so on - but if they come to you for a card reading, a card reading is what they deserve to get. Maybe reading on line will help you to focus more keenly on that side of it ?

gregory said:

Use whatever deck you like - and leave the school if they try and force you to go WS as that is none of their business ! - and try and focus on what someone who knows nothing of tarot can also "see" in the cards, if you see what I mean.

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Ahh...a variation on the Bunning problem...there's a "right way" (read: my way & your way isn't allowed!). Sometimes a little knowledge can be dangerous, I get it. Yeah, those that know nothing can be best. Amber K wrote about that in her "Heart of Tarot: An Intuitive Approach" book under the difficult clients section with some sub-heading like this: the Tarot expert.

gregory said:

But watch not to analyse too far. Body language and the rest can be deceptive too..... Look at the cards, not the person, I'd say. I know all about picking up clues and so on - but if they come to you for a card reading, a card reading is what they deserve to get. Maybe reading on line will help you to focus more keenly on that side of it ?

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That may well be, I wouldn't be surprised. HGAs often create experiences for growth.

I read with thoth and got complex at times with things peiople were not familiar with, they wouyld give me a WTF look so I'd translate into terms they COULD get. Simple.

If they were a real simple tell my fortune type, I'd work on that level (and charge more ) or else they would have been scared off by my demenour

When Wiccans give advise about Hermetics and Thoth they should realise what tradition they are a bastardization of.

ravenest said:

I read with thoth and got complex at times with things peiople were not familiar with, they wouyld give me a WTF look so I'd translate into terms they COULD get. Simple.

If they were a real simple tell my fortune type, I'd work on that level (and charge more ) or else they would have been scared off by my demenour

When Wiccans give advise about Hermetics and Thoth they should realise what tradition they are a bastardization of.

Click to expand...

Thanks! It's the balance that's hard. Last night I had to do an online, write the whole thing & send it, kind of deal. I look forward to the "in-person" times where I can gauge how I'm coming across. I mainly said up front about interaction and then just talked about what the cards meant. I also wanted to be careful - and probably still blew this part! - because the querent/seeker/sitter was ESL (English as second language). So spared the journey, alas...

With the last piece...I won't pass that one along! But the general consensus is this is a person with whom a little knowledge is a deadly thing. There were some things said about normal cards that appear in readings for them that are usual cardinal as well as early Trumps and that blew by me. Now that I think about it, they shouldn't have bragged about it. It probably means they're stuck in some eddy in beginning stages and don't realize it.

A thought I have right now: I like to see a natural progression through Trumps and suits throughout time. This shows a progression of personal soul-work/initiation-type process.

What do people think of that tentative belief I'm floating? Is it ideal to see motion through the Trumps, Courts, & Pips as a sign of personal growth?

See it all you like - you have to see what you see how you see it - but don't bother sharing it with the sitter......