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Originally Posted by Dulcimer
After you .
You're a real gent!
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Red face


LOL

Yes, I noticed that none of the other 'versions' that Kaplan mentioned were consistent with GD doctrine.

But one thing that I did find interesting was that on one page, he shows the various versions of the ToL - the one that GD use (shape-wise; it didn't go into path associations) is labelled as being 'an older kabbalistic version'.

Was the GD the only group at that time making the connections here? And did they splinter off from another Rosicrusian group? Can someone enlighten me on this?

I'm also wondering what form of deck did they use? Would it have been Mathers' version which was used to teach tarot to GD initiates like Waite and Crowley? Has this version been published?

I've actually been playing around with changing the astrological associations completely (helps when you are an Astrologer by trade).

Perhaps this is a new thread coming on......

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windhorse
But one thing that I did find interesting was that on one page, he shows the various versions of the ToL - the one that GD use (shape-wise; it didn't go into path associations) is labelled as being 'an older kabbalistic version'.
There are lots of different versions of the Tree of Life. But the important thing is that the western esoteric movement uses the Kircher ToL. It does not matter that the western system disagrees with the older hebrew system because it's a totally different system.

Hardcore hebrew Kabbalists my pour scorn of the Hermetic Qabalah because of it's inclusion of Tarot, Astrology and other aspects of western esotericism. So what! The Hermetic Qabalah, while having hebrew roots, is a new system that breaks away from the hebrew tradition and embraces everything.

Old may be good, but new is better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Windhorse
Was the GD the only group at that time making the connections here? And did they splinter off from another Rosicrusian group? Can someone enlighten me on this?
I don't even want to try and explain this one. Windhorse, dig into the origins of the Golden Dawn. But forget all the stuff about charters from continental Rosicrusians and links to the past because it's all a smoke screen.
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Originally Posted by Windhorse
I'm also wondering what form of deck did they use? Would it have been Mathers' version which was used to teach tarot to GD initiates like Waite and Crowley? Has this version been published?
Erm...... they used the Golden Dawn deck.

This one is supposed to be based on photos of Israel Regardies deck. I think vapid is the best word I can use to describe it.
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/golden-dawn/

This one is a new version by the Cicero's. It's er..... very bright. But that's because it sticks slavishly to the Golden Dawn flashing colour scheme.
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards...-dawn-magical/

I don't/can't read with either deck. They're just for study and comparrison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Windhorse
I've actually been playing around with changing the astrological associations completely (helps when you are an Astrologer by trade).
Fine. But then you would creating your own symbol system. People using the Hermetic Qabalah attributions are talking the same language making it easier to share ideas. By altering the attributions you would be creating a new language.
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Originally Posted by Aeon418
Fine. But then you would creating your own symbol system. People using the Hermetic Qabalah attributions are talking the same language making it easier to share ideas. By altering the attributions you would be creating a new language.
Point taken.
I have started the new thread:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=56236

Thanks for that info, mate! I'm interested in the study part of the GD also. I'm happy with my well-worn Haindl and Thoth decks for reading.

I agree with what you said about Hermetic qabbalh too - it is a different system; that's the nature of Hermeticism: the alchemical syncretism of disparate elements to create something bigger, brighter, better.....

As I mentioned in the above thread I posted, there is an argument to play with a 'new language' (as you put it) - if only for some intellectual discussion here on this forum! This is the nature of comparative studies too. Hopefully we can use comparison to try and find the common thread of truth.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windhorse
Thanks for that info, mate! I'm interested in the study part of the GD also. I'm happy with my well-worn Haindl and Thoth decks for reading.
I only use the Golden Dawn decks for study myself. They are quite useful when used in conjunction with the Thoth and Rider-Waite decks. Essentially the ideas and symbols in the Golden Dawn deck were the base-line for both Crowley and Waite. From that base-line it's obvious that Crowley expanded and built upon the Golden Dawn structure. He revealed all of the esoteric symbolism, while giving it a Thelemic upgrade at the same time.
Waite, on the other hand, appears to have been more guarded. He appears to have deliberately altered or omited certain symbols in order to hide the esoteric nature of the Golden Dawn deck. That's quite funny really when you think that Waite's deck and it's countless clones are now considered to be the "standard" by which all other Tarot are measured. Quite by accident Waite's deliberate deceptions have been copied again and again and again. It's still a good deck though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Windhorse
I agree with what you said about Hermetic qabbalh too - it is a different system; that's the nature of Hermeticism: the alchemical syncretism of disparate elements to create something bigger, brighter, better.....
Yep!!

Many traditional Hebrew scholars, such as Gershom Scholem, have been quite vitriolic in their attacks on the Hermetic Qabalah, the Golden Dawn, Aleister Crowley and the Tarot. And from their traditional Hebrew Kabbalistic perspective they are both right and justified.
But they fail (or refuse) to realise that the western Hermetic Qabalah is now a seperate system in it's own right that has evolved beyond the straight jacket of Hebrew Kabbalistic orthodoxy. Instead they see it as a perverse distortion or "their" tradition.

Robert Wang sums it up pretty nicely in his introduction to his "The Qabalistic Tarot". Recommended!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon418
...they see it as a perverse distortion of "their" tradition.
Well, to be fair, it is. It has been the mystical basis of their religion for thousands of years before you-know-who got hold of it. Now, when anyone mentions the Kabbalah, it is our Western version which everyone thinks of as the real Kabbalah.
It really is "their" tradition.
It is not yet ours.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dulcimer
Well, to be fair, it is. It has been the mystical basis of their religion for thousands of years before you-know-who got hold of it. Now, when anyone mentions the Kabbalah, it is our Western version which everyone thinks of as the real Kabbalah.
Well lets stop saying Kabbalah then when we're talking about the Qabalah.
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Well lets stop saying Kabbalah then when we're talking about the Qabalah.
Picky, picky, picky.
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I suppose we could have Franz Bardon moment and call it the Quabbalah.
But of course, according to Bardon, this requires the student to learn the "correct" German pronunciation of the letters.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon418
I suppose we could have Franz Bardon moment and call it the Quabbalah.
But of course, according to Bardon, this requires the student to learn the "correct" German pronunciation of the letters.
Pedantisch, pedantisch, pedantisch.
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