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'The Real Astrology' arrived in the post this morning. I'm hoping to start on it tonight.
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[I’m coming in very late on this one! I kept putting it off until I had more time … ha! ]

Firstly, great rant Scion (I always enjoy a good rant - and after all, the moderator did request you NOT to ‘hold back’. ), it reminded me about some of my rants in some astrology and GD / Thoth astrology threads.

Also the issue I had trying to sell Hermetic source books. Why read the original when the Llewellyn version is available? I still have the original Rumi writings; they didn’t sell, while Rajneesh publication’s, snippets of bastardized Rumi with nice photos of Rajneesh blessing out (and twice the price) kept selling out .

The content was great though, it has helped me to understand the dynamics of planets as seen by western astrologers. I never really got that, but the analogy of the travelers in their own or foreign lands are v. helpful. I guess my concepts were based on a wheel and now, understanding further the planetary concepts I am seeing a chart more as a personal mandala (as made by the planetary aspects). Although I am defiantly NOT an astrologer, I find the subject fascinating … that is, the overall subject. I’m not interested in doing complex observations or printing out charts from computer programs and a lot of my ‘pseudo astrology’ has been constellation based. (… Ravenest ducks for cover …)

I like Scion’s traditionalist approach as it preserves the trunk of the tree, but for me … well frankly, I live in modern times and as I get older I am more interested in practical things that relate to me and my lifestyle. I also enjoy (and think it important) to try, attempt or even play at incorporating technology and new discoveries (even if they are literalist, scientific ones) into the magical systems I use.

I’m a blend of both worlds, the old magical and the new technological; I live in a modern ‘western’ society in the oldest country with one of the oldest (remnant) extant indigenous cultures. For me, their ‘star lore’ is a window into the beginnings of astrology and in many ways that is important to me.

This leads to the thread within the thread ; how do us southerners work it down here?

It may not matter to Similia which way the ocean is when he is in his temple (‘magical east’ can be just as valid in the Temple or Lodge as ‘directional east’ ) nor that his calendar is a Gregorian, Northern European, neat, laid out table. Other factors are probably more important in his environment and with his workings. (Hope you don’t mind being used as my example S. ). Like, he might prefer to meditate at 11 am when the traffic outside his house has eased off. And when it’s hot enough, I am sure he can find the beach. (It’s at Southbank - don’t worry NO ONE knows where the coast is in Brisbane!)

My concern, at the moment, is that I have been in ‘Wattle’ (I’ll call it that – it’s the season between winter and spring here) - warm enough to plant and germinate but no spring rain. (I grew summer veggies all through winter this year – no frost, last year lost a bit of the garden to frost.) Many people are still wondering why it’s so hot and still winter. I don’t want my new plant and food seedlings to dry out, the winds up and the goannas are awake. If the hairy caterpillars all join head to tail in a long line, then one can go to the coast and easily catch lots of bream (fish) - essential knowledge, if that is what you are relying on to feed the family.

These earth signs reflect what is happening in the sky. The indigenous knowledge talks of seasons within seasons and cycles within cycles within cycles, some, thousands of years long, its not just ‘Wattle’ now but bright - gold - fire - rock wallaby – dry - wattle (I made those names up). These long cycles are read from sky patterns and remembered in songs and connected with various areas of modulation through land form and song lines.

So if I am going to get to the roots of astrology I’m gonna go back a LOT further than what Scion is talking about. Frankly, I can’t see practical personal use in medieval astrology … except Scion’s rave has helped me to affirm that everything IS connected, not just in the old mind set, but in reality and nature and modern slot-in-the-box understanding isn’t going to get my Aussie/ Euro garden going.

But why should Similia worry about that when he can probably go around the corner and buy organic vegetables and some fish for a few dollars? [ Just concentrate on keeping this and the Thoth forum going ]

Some of us white people garden and fish as hobbies, some were born overseas, some here in the city and others born in (or moved to) the country or outback and some of these white people have even been initiated into Aboriginal culture (to an extent).

Doing the teeny bit of Hermetics, ritual, rites, celebrations, etc we have done here, it has always been SOOOOO obvious how north biased everything is. I have found some interesting ‘mixed up stuff’ (Liber Reguli, Invocations of Pan in Rites of Eleusis Rite of Luna, etc.) which seem made for the southern hemisphere (at least more so than the idea that Reguli represents someone standing on their head in the sun !!! { a la DuQuette.

So, I’m a wacky mixed bag, in some cases following the oldest traditions, yet I am quiet prepared to go all the way and look at an astrology that uses a modern astronomical navigation map (and postulate adding 2 outer planets to the Tree {now Pluto has been expelled}, to make 9 planets so Tarot correspondences are all the same for each suit e.g., every six is ruled by the Sun, every 7 by Venus). – Ravenest ducks several flying shoes.

Sapienza and Bernice, in regards to a southern GD astro system, I worked a bit on a variety of this, I leave the Princess around the North Pole on their (variant) stations and place the ACES in a similar fashion, around the South Pole (and right, humans live at the North Pole and not at the South Pole, Princesses - Aces) it’s posted around here somewhere.

Aside from the obvious reversals (generated by those northerners living underneath us ) there are a LOT of similarities. Take Mars for example, some Aboriginal people call Mars Bungil (Old ‘Red Eye’ – he is angry because people have broken the Law), he is responsible for making sure the Law is kept, his form is the Eaglehawk. For me, that easily equates to Mars: red: Eagle or Hawk (Horus) : The Book of the Law. The story relating to the formation of the stars we call Scorpio is such a ‘Scorpionic’ story I really have to wonder what’s going on. They ‘put’ similar animals in the sky; swan, eagle, peacock (lyrebird), raven (all symbols of alchemical stages in the north) as the Greeks did - except, of course, horses (Pegasus) and other unknown species. But I’m repeating what I’ve written in other posts.

There are also the chapters in Crowley’s ‘Book of Lies’, direct references to Thelemic philosophies using Southern metaphors ( The Southern Cross, Waratah Blossoms, The Duck-Billed Platypus - the last, a typical misunderstanding generated by cultural bias).

One should realize 2 things I think; one’s cultural roots and conditionings, in this case, for a European southerner, it might be appropriate to use a northern system when dealing with psychology and related issues. The other is the environment one finds oneself in and how one relates (or doesn’t relate) to it, and then adaptations need to be developed.

For variant systems of dealing with this check out the Antipodean Calendar, it’s a southern hemisphere astrological agricultural guide.

Not that I accept it 100%, parts seems wrong to me, but it is an example of how some southerners have dealt with the issue.

Rosanne’s post explains it quiet well. Note the constellational and fixed star influence there, as it is strongly with most indigenous systems.

In regard to Bernice’s question about Oz and NZ. Bernice - NZ is actually one of the states of Australia.

Nah, (Ravenest ducks a flying poi) just joking with Rosanne, she explained it well, except that when I was in NZ I was bowled over at the trust and friendliness shown to me, compared to Oz. Plus, environmentally it’s a much younger, fresher country …. More UK influenced … many Australians seem attracted to the North American influence.

Sapienza makes the point about seasons in Brisbane and the mix of European and Australian. I found, in the past, this was a little difficult to juggle, I talked to an Elder about it once (i.e. An Aboriginal elder) and he said I was lucky as I had BOTH things … I’ve looked at it different since then … I think it comes down to one’s environment and lifestyle.

In my observations, here, it appears that the night sky, it’s basic annual movement and the fixed stars and constellations, give an overall map of the cycles of nature and the psychological journey of the individual, his rites of passage and initiations. To understand and know what cycles within cycles are manifesting, to the sky map is added the movement of the planets. The same in the Antipodean Calendar (used for Biodynamic agriculture). Crops are not planted, harvested, pruned, etc on the same calendar date each year, the general times are indicated by the stars and constellations but the specific days for best results are found with planetary aspects – especially the phases and multiple cycles of the Moon, within the appropriate time period, some years it’s very early, some late, a ‘bad’ day may appear amongst a set of ‘good’ ones.

One could say that constellational ‘astrology’ relates to the hunter-gatherer, planetary astrology to agriculture;
“ – hence by the Heavens we may foreknow
The seasons all, times for to reap and sow …”
And the sort of complex astrology Scion is talking about relates to ‘Empire’, or;
“ .. And when 'tis fit to launch into the deep
And when to war, and when in peace to sleep.” (From ‘Three Books of Occult Philosophy’ – Cornelius Agrippa.)

Considering the mess we have made with our modern ‘Empire’ I can sympathize with Scion in his lamenting of a lost and accurate art.

Here are two ideas about astrology in the south … one an example of how the GD sees it and another is an example of an adapted southern astrology and what it can result in.

“Conversely also, for south of the Equator (as in the country of Australia) his ” [the Sun] “quitting the Equinoctial Point southward will translate the same effect of Aries.

But this rule shall not for one moment affirm that Aries and Libra are identical in nature. Nor that the zodiac proper is inoperative. Nor that the nature of the Sun is not modified by the constellation in which he is. But only that the direct effect of the physical impact of his rays falling upon a certain portion of the earth’s surface, will be in proportion to the duration of their action, in the excitement they produce in the terrestrial forces.”
Book T – ‘The Convoluted Forces ….’

So, in the world of GD astrology it seems that the Sun is modified by the force of the constellation and that force is the same in north and south but a different physical force from the sun causes the seasons. Some astrologers react strongly to the idea of constellations having some type of magical energy that they beam to earth and is picked up by the planets, but rightly or wrongly there are quiet a few systems that follow this idea (also in the above cited Antipodean Astrology).

I’ve had an ongoing argument in Astrology forum here about constellations and I can cite many traditions that use them but I am told; that’s a one off, never heard of that one, they are romantics, their system has faults, etc.

Secondly, the reading of a southern astrology: (as an example of southerners adapting GD/Thoth/ Thelema).

“On Aug. 10/11 the Sun will be 17 deg Leo, Moon in Leo, Mars 17 deg Scorpio, Saturn 17 deg Taurus and Uranus 15 deg Aquarius making a Grand Cross of the Kerubic Signs of the Apocalypse in the Heavens. According to Webster’s Dictionary Apocalypse means to ‘unveil or disclose’.

“This is an unusual and powerful astrological configuration, perhaps a sign in the sky proclaiming the New Aeon? ….

“In the Southern hemisphere the Sun has been passing through Virgo at the Spring Equinox, not Pisces, and will be entering Leo, not Aquarius. From this I get a message of the Earth like a brain with its left and right lobes and the separate hemispheres balancing each other but through different functions.

“In Australia we will be entering the Age of Leo, not Aquarius. Leo – Babalon and the Beast conjoined in their dance of Ecstasy, and the Sun, the Ruler of the Age.

“… we feel the metaphors can be reinterpreted with relative ease; the fertility and vigor of the ram can stand as well as a spring symbol as can a goat, or a spring maiden (Virgo).”

‘Darkwood Dairy – Journal of Darkwood Oasis OTO’ (sorry about the year, it’s marked Anno IVviii … 2000 ? )
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Thanks for the post ravenest. Really interesting to hear the thoughts of another 'southerner'

Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest
Sapienza makes the point about seasons in Brisbane and the mix of European and Australian. I found, in the past, this was a little difficult to juggle, I talked to an Elder about it once (i.e. An Aboriginal elder) and he said I was lucky as I had BOTH things … I’ve looked at it different since then … I think it comes down to one’s environment and lifestyle.
This is certainly food for thought, and I will also think of it differently now. Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest
Sapienza and Bernice, in regards to a southern GD astro system, I worked a bit on a variety of this, I leave the Princess around the North Pole on their (variant) stations and place the ACES in a similar fashion, around the South Pole (and right, humans live at the North Pole and not at the South Pole, Princesses - Aces) it’s posted around here somewhere.
Interesting idea. I'll see if I can search for the old post, but thanks for sharing. It's always interesting to hear what others come up with.

I'm about half way through Frawley's 'Real Astrology' and it's providing some interesting insights about the traditional approach. I do struggle a little with his style, in particular his view of the superiority of the 'revealed faiths'. Not sure this fits with my world view, but certainly some interesting ideas. Oh, and as an aside, I'm not an obsessive feminist and nor am I one to demand political correctness in all situations, but it seems dear Mr Frawley also believes in the superiority of men He defaults to 'he' in all his examples in what I've read so far which seems rather odd in a book published in the year 2000. Perhaps he's taking the 'traditional' approach a little far

I found an interesting site that discusses southern hemisphere astrology that people may or may not find interesting. (http://www.astrologycom.com/qual.html)

It looks at the elements as combinations of hot/cold/dry/wet and how this relates to seasons in both hemispheres. It's an interesting approach and one which could be easily adapted to fit with seasons in different parts of the world. In the article the author simply reverses the seasons for the SH, which would work well enough in say, Melbourne, but for Brisbane, which is more sub-tropical, further adaptations could be made. Something to play around with anyway.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest
Sapienza and Bernice, in regards to a southern GD astro system, I worked a bit on a variety of this, I leave the Princess around the North Pole on their (variant) stations and place the ACES in a similar fashion, around the South Pole (and right, humans live at the North Pole and not at the South Pole, Princesses - Aces) it’s posted around here somewhere.
Hi ravenest....is it the last post in this thread that you are referring to?

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread...ses+north+pole
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I think so ... I stopped due to lack of interest? boredom? me being absolutly wrong? anyway, people didnt seem into it.

Its worked out a lot clearer in a doc I could PM you (some guy asked for Tarot articles here in a post for his magazine, so I worked on this, sent it to him and never heard from him again. I think it's on my flashdrive ) if you're interested.
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I'd be very interested thanks. I find it really difficult sometimes to put complex ideas into words - sometimes it's just easier face to face with some paper to scribble on
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sapienza
Hi ravenest....is it the last post in this thread that you are referring to?

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread...ses+north+pole
Great post at that link (post #5) ravenest. Not sure if that's the post being referred to, but not being a Thoth/GD fan I found it informative. And like sapienza, I would also be interested in seeing your doc.

Bee
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Maybe I should post a new thread here with it in, or two P.M.'s?

Ah ... what the hell - I'll post it up. I just found it attached to an email in my sent box.

Its called 'Astro Tarot Spread'.
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Just jumping in, many months later, with my first Thoth deck waiting to be opened in the living room (I'm a little nervous about it!) to say that I have really wondered what astrologers were going to do about Pluto being demoted to a non-planet, and now I see it's not a problem for traditional astrology. Just that modern astrology that's been developed since Pluto's discovery! I feel better now. And I am reading this thread at the edge of my seat, you guys are great!
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It's a moot point. Classical astrology (and thence magick) has 7 planets. Pluto is not a planet in the Golden System. Uranus and Neptune ditto. The reason this thread is called 7 planets is because those seven are at the core of the Golden Dawn system. The so-called outer planerts have no place in the system.

IMO, modern astrology hasn't developed very much since the discovery of Uranus "Herschel" (let alone Pluto) and I have yet to see a single modern astrologer get half the results of someone using traditional techniques, even if they are used in a modern context.
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