My attempt at an electional chart, and an associated horary chart

RohanMenon

Thank you a million times Minderwiz!

I learned so much from this exercise!

Thank You for taking the time to explain what you were doing. Books are good, but nothing like 'watching' an experienced astrologer at work.

I still have to decide the format etc of the ritual (less than 8 hours away lol!). If I understand correctly, you are (more or less) doing an analysis as Lilly would do it but using Whole Signs instead. Correct? Or is the procedure itself radically different (as compared to Lilly) with Hellenistic Horary?

wow, so much to learn. So little time.
Thanks Again!

EDIT: The actual question was, "will this ritual (timed with my amateur electional chart) succeed?"
 

RohanMenon

a question on a specific conclusion

"If the question was 'Will the ritual be performed? 'my answer would be
that it would very probably not be, the conjunction of the Moo with
Venus would prohibit it."

How does this work? why would conjunction of Moon with Venus prohibit (or tend against) the actual performance? I would have read a conjunction of Moon and Venus as affirmation rather than negation. (not that I know Horary)
 

Minderwiz

Yes it's a similar procedure to Lilly. Hellenistic Astrology didn't have a Horary branch, or at least it's very debatable, there being some evidence for a Horary component byHephastion of Thebes, in the early fifth century CE. But that extent is not much, as it's part of Book III of the Apotelesmatics

The first recognised Horary Astrologer that we know of is Sahl Ibn Bishar in the early ninth century and after the Hellenistic period. That being said the methods he used are closely related to Hellenistic Astrology, certainly more closely than they are to the latter Medieval period. He used Whole Sign Houses, so my use of that system isn't anachronistic.

As with Hellenistic Astrologers, he would have counted the Sun/Moon relationship as Inconjunct or Averse. The semi sextile is a much later addition (Kepler, I think). So although the Sun is in dignities of Mercury (Triplicity and Terms)showing the desired level of dedication, the question of whether you will infact perform it successfully is still left open, there being no aspect between Sun and Moon.

It is probably stretching matters, but as Moon's next aspect is to Venus, the Sun's ruler and then to Mercury itself there's at least some indication that Mercury will be honoured in someway by a ritual carried out by you.

The doubt under either house system is whether you will actually carry out the ritual. I hope you do!
 

Minderwiz

"If the question was 'Will the ritual be performed? 'my answer would be
that it would very probably not be, the conjunction of the Moon with
Venus would prohibit it."

How does this work? why would conjunction of Moon with Venus prohibit (or tend against) the actual performance? I would have read a conjunction of Moon and Venus as affirmation rather than negation. (not that I know Horary)

In this horary the Moon is Lord 1 and significator of the querent. The normal considerations regarding the Moon would not be enforced, so it being in the Via Combusta (which I don't use) says something about you, not whether the chart is valid. Ideally we would want the Moon to be applying to and perfecting the sextile with Mercury as its next aspect and Venus placed in a lower degree but still conjunct. However the Moon's next aspect is actually Venus. That conjunction prevents or prohibits the matter as the Moon process stops when the significator makes it's next aspect, unless it can translate its light to another planet that will go on to aspect the other significator as it's next aspect. So having taken the light from the Moon, if Venus went on and aspected Mercury as its next aspect the matter would still be perfected.

However Translation requires either a faster moving planet to carry on the process (well one that's faster than the other significator - either Sun or Mercury depending on which house system is being used). Alternatively a very slow planet would do, such that the other significator catches up with it and takes the light, of the Moon.

So if the Moon were to aspect Saturn as it's next aspect and then Mercury or Sun (whichever is Lord 3) aspected Saturn as their next aspect, then the matter would be perfected.

But the Moon will aspect Venus next:

If Mercury is Lord 3 Venus is so far behind Mercury in degree and is also slower than Mercury, Venus can't catch up before Mercury changes signs and even then she will continue to fall behind.

If Sun is Lord 3 Venus cannot achieve any aspect with the Sun except for a conjunction. That could only occur from the present positions if Venus turned retrograde. Pretty quickly. In fact Venus will not turn Retrograde till March next year.

So there's not a meeting between significators, so no action to perfect the matter. That would hold, even if your friend did use Neptune. Currently it's Retrograde in Pisces and at the time of the horary was in 9 degrees 50 minutes approx. So Moon and Neptune are separating, not applying at the time of the horary. As Neptune is retrograde for long periods of time and also very slow, Venus will be long gone by the time Neptune turns Direct.

So 'Will the ritual be successful?' It looks powerful in both charts but neither chart promises perfection of the act of performance. As you have control over your own actions you can override the chart and perform the action, in which case the outcome looks good, from both charts.

Horary doesn't compel people to perform. If the question is 'Will she marry me?' this doesn't mean that with a chart which says 'Yes' all you need do is sit back in your chair and wait for her to come knocking on your door. Nor does it mean that if you don't answer the door, she will break in to get to you.

You have to take the necessary steps to win the girl or to carry out the ritual. So at the time of the horary, were you unsure that you were going to perform the ritual, or even looking on the election chart as more of an academic exercise. If you were, then the chart is actually right for that moment in time, and it might be the subsequent discussion that gets you fired up to perform the act at the desired time.
 

RohanMenon

And because I can't leave things alone,

I converted the horary chart into Sidereal (Fagan/Allen) + Placidus.

This is a *very* clear chart, even to my under educated eyes. Gemini Rising with Mercury exactly on the IC, but in Leo (barely) so *mutual reception* with the Sun whoa, and Moon and Venus conjunct in Libra.

The semi-sextile you noted is still there.

Very good. I now see (vs theoretically knowing) that horary can work with all house systems and zodiacs. I'm still using Regiomontanus and Tropical for *learning* from Lilly, but since my chosen practise system is Sidereal + Placidus, good to know the same information shows up there too.

thanks again Minderwiz (I've sent you a PM.Just FYI)

EDIT: Thank you for the expanded explanation in the last pont. I *was* wavering because actually doing rituals (vs casting hypothetical electional charts for a hypothetical ritual) 'feels' ridiculous to me, - I don't really believe in astrological magic etc - so your horary reading is exactly correct.
 

RohanMenon

What an astounding reading Minderwiz

"So at the time of the horary, were you unsure that you were going to perform the ritual, or even looking on the election chart as more of an academic exercise. If you were, then the chart is actually right for that moment in time,. "

This is *exactly* correct. I am completely blown away! (also see PM)
 

Minderwiz

The aspects between planets don't change when you switch zodiacs. All that changes arere the sign placement and therefore the essential dignities. Planets may become more or less capable of acting but their opportunities to act remain the same. Angular planets are still angular, planets in the 6, 8 or 12 houses are still there. That only changes if you change house systems.

Changing Zodiacs doesn't fundamentally change Astrology, indeed it doesn't change it at all (unless you change your approach or methods at the same time). Although I use the tropical zodiac, I made the change of methods and jettisoned the New Age crap that has crippled Astrology for the last 100 years and went back to a more disciplined, logical approach.

You effectively did the same rejection by switching to a sidereal zodiac and away from the New Age perversions and adopting a new approach to go with it.
 

Chanah

@Chanah

Do you have experience with either? I find it hard to discern what is fluff and what actually works in practise, when it comes to these 'magical' books. People on some reddit forums reccomended the Picatrix to me, but on further enquiry, they weren't practitioners and in a couple of cases hadn't even read the book they were reccomending!

Due Disclosure: I don't believe in 'magic' at all. I don't necessarily disbelieve it either. The above is just an *experiment* to see if such electional rituals work despite my lack of faith. Fwiw I don't 'believe' in astrology either, but I'm willing to try any technique to see if it works. Sideral Solar and Lunar returns seem to work reliably (so far), in spite of my lack of belief in them!

Picatrix is worth reading, but it's huge. Definitely not fluffy, if that's your concern. It's a compendium of medieval astrological magic-theology-science. And a bit more thrown in. Another lengthy treatise that's worthwhile is Marsilio Ficino's Three Books on Life, but that can be difficult to find and pricey these days.

Ibn Qurra's De Imaginibus is shorter. That one definitely is worth a read, as he was one of the Harranean Sabians, who are most likely the people that invented talismanic magic. He does assume you know what you're doing, but I think you'd get quite a bit out of it.

And yes, I've made some talismans in my time.
 

RohanMenon

Thanks Chanah

I've added these books to my 'to purchase' list.
Cheers,