Lazzarelli: a Pythagorean diversion

John Meador

Pythagorean nine?

JMD wrote:
"If there is a Hebrew letter sort-of correlation between these and the 22 + 5 (finals?) to give a total of 27, and if these are placed, as has at times been done, in the 9-chambers, their nine-fold X 3 division may also hint at some Pythagorean reflections."

What are the 9-chambers?

"An ancient Greek ring carved from translucent lavender chalcedony in three bands, the outer two being fluted. The flattened side bears an inscription in three lines:
O M O / N O I / A = Omonoia: oneness of mind, unanimity, concord. The term is also an epithet for the goddess Concordia. Interestingly, Omonoia was also used by the Pythagoreans to describe the number 9 and its square root 3 (confer: Theologumena Arithmeticae 16,57, [Iamblichus] text in Leipzig)."
http://www.hixenbaugh.net/hixenbaugh_ancient_art_website_043.htm

Lazzarelli's poem triangulates:

9. Mercury
18. Polyhymnia
27. Victory

also forming nine triads:

1. Prima Causa
2. 1st Movable
3.Hope

4.Saturn
5.Juppiter
6.Mars

7. Sun
8. Venus
9. Mercury

10. Moon
11. Music
12. Poetry

13. Apollo
14. Clio
15. Euterpe

16. Melpomene
17. Thalia
18. Polyhymnia

19. Erato
20. Terpsichore
21. Urania

22. Calliope
23. Pallas
24. Juno

25. Neptue
26. Pluto
27. Victory


-John
 

John Meador

Christine Payne-Towler, May 28, 2000

"Lazzarelli does not stay with the Decave as his major model, but he has clearly been influenced by it. ...Looking among my alphabetic references, I find that <Stephen> Flowers (of Hermetic Magic), gives us several versions of Phoenecian-based number-letter alphabets with more than 24 letters. However, it is Hulse, in his Key to it All, Book 2, p. 8, that says" "by 400 BCE, a 27-character alphanumeric code for Greek was established paralleling the Hebrew 27 alphabet model of King Ezra."

"After introducing the original six Latin letters which since 300 bce have
had numeric value (the Roman Numerals), Hulse then goes into Lull's "Latin
Cabala", which he based on three series of nine letters (for the terrestrial, intellectual, and celestial worlds). This makes a total of 27!
On page 121 Hulse gives very simple instructions for converting Lull's
combinatory wheels into a "philosophical machine" of 27 cards... Lull was very interested in converting both Jews and Moslems to Christianity, so he went with a "new" arrangement that was constructed with the ideas from Astrology and Hebrew interwoven with his base-9 wheels, perhaps so the Christians and Moslems would not reject the system as being too Jewish... Lull, then, could have provided the logic for the Lazzarelli Triumphs."
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TarotL/message/2408
 

Huck

Lazzarelli's poem doesn't triangulate. This is hair-drawn and only confuses that, what is really there.

It's not totally clear, to which context Lazzarelli's order refers, but it is rather clear to which it not refers.

http://trionfi.com/0/g/32/
 

John Meador

more hair-drawings

Huck wrote:
"Lazzarelli's poem doesn't triangulate. This is hair-drawn and only confuses that, what is really there.

It's not totally clear, to which context Lazzarelli's order refers, but it is rather clear to which it not refers."


My use of the word "triangulates" was perhaps too poetic...
My point is that the 27 are 9 multiples of 3; and that the placement of Mercury at #9 is perhaps meaningful in relation to Polyhymnia #18 & to Victory #27. Note at lines 203 ff, under the Prime Cause, Lazzarelli speaks of Polyhymnia: "She was first among the nymphs of Mt. Helicon of former times, and I am able to sing what I learned through her recollection." She procedes to discuss the incomprehensibility of the Prime Cause, and the presence within it of the First Changeable, which lie beyond the 8th sphere=Hope.

Mercury #9 reminded me of the following "lost" work ("rediscovered" 1947):

"Lord, grant us a wisdom from your power that reaches us, so that we may describe to ourselves the vision of the eighth and the ninth."

"Lord, grant us the truth in the image. Allow us through the spirit to see the form of the image that has no deficiency, and receive the reflection of the pleroma from us through our praise. "

"I am Mind, and I see another Mind, the one that moves the soul! I see the one that moves me from pure forgetfulness. You give me power! I see myself! I want to speak! Fear restrains me. I have found the beginning of the power that is above all powers, the one that has no beginning. I see a fountain bubbling with life. I have said, my son, that I am Mind. I have seen! Language is not able to reveal this. For the entire eighth, my son, and the souls that are in it, and the angels, sing a hymn in silence. And I, Mind, understand."

"What he had finished praising, he shouted, "Father Trismegistus! What shall I say? We have received this light. And I myself see this same vision in you. And I see the eighth, and the souls that are in it, and the angels singing a hymn to the ninth and its powers. And I see him who has the power of them all, creating those <that are> in the spirit."

"It is advantageous from now on, that we keep silence in a reverent posture. Do not speak about the vision from now on. It is proper to sing a hymn to the father until the day to quit (the) body."

"What you sing, my father, I too want to sing."
"I am singing a hymn within myself. While you rest yourself, be active in praise. For you have found what you seek."

"But is it proper, my father, that I praise because I am filled in my heart?"
"What is proper is your praise that you will sing to God, so that it might be written in this imperishable book."

"I will offer up the praise in my heart, as I pray to the end of the universe and the beginning of the beginning, to the object of man's quest, the immortal discovery, the begetter of light and truth, the sower of reason, the love of immortal life. No hidden word will be able to speak about you, Lord. Therefore, my mind wants to sing a hymn to you daily. I am the instrument of your spirit; Mind is your plectrum. And your counsel plucks me. I see myself! I have received power from you. For your love has reached us."

"My son, write this book for the temple at Diospolis in hieroglyphic characters, entitling it 'The Eighth Reveals the Ninth.'"
"I will do it, my <father>, as you command now."

"And write an oath in the book, lest those who read the book bring the language into abuse, and not (use it) to oppose the acts of fate. ..by stages he advances and enters into the way of immortality. And thus he enters into the understanding of the eighth that reveals the ninth."

"This is the oath: I make him who will read this holy book swear by heaven and earth, and fire and water, and seven rulers of substance, and the creating spirit in them, and the <unbegotten> God, and the self-begotten one, and him who has been begotten, that he will guard the things that Hermes has said. And those who keep the oath, God will be reconciled with them and everyone whom we have named. But wrath will come to each one of those who violate the oath. This is the perfect one who is, my son."
The Discourse on the Eighth and Ninth-Translated by James Brashler, Peter A. Dirkse, and Douglas M. Parrott

"Discourse on the Eighth and Ninth"
" This work is a leading example of what Fowden calls an "initiatory" hermetic text concerned with the final phases of a "philosophical paideia," the last steps that the initiate takes to recognize his true nature and then, in knowing God, to attain godhood. NHC VI.6 shares these sublime intentions with some parts of the Corpus Hermeticum, especially C.H. I and XIII, but most of the other seventeen Greek treatises are "preparatory" in Fowden's taxonomy. The describe various lower stages in the progress toward wisdom that the initiate must acquire before enjoying the rebirth offered in C.H. XIII or NHC VI.6.[132]"
http://www.onelittleangel.com/wisdom/art/manuscript.asp?mc=378

"A single region of the sky might be termed the seven planetary heavens or the twelve zodiacal mansions, depending on whether it was subdivided horizontally or vertically; but however the region of astral determinism was called, it differed both spatially and ontologically from the eighth heaven beyond the planets; and the ninth heaven differed yet again. Typologically, the Hermetic view may be seen as a conflation of apocalyptists' heavens with the hypostases of Neoplatonism. Whereas apocalyptists' heavens were all made out of the same sort of ethereal stuff, Hermetic heavens formed three distinctive states of being.

Eliade (1982:298-301) recognized the initiatory character of the so-called philosophical texts of Hermetism, and Fowden (1993:104-115) clarified the basic contours of the mystical experiences that the texts describe as "rebirth." The following account builds on the fine presentation by Fowden but places greater emphasis on the ontological implications of rebirth."

"To go on to reach the Ninth cosmic region, the imaginal realm of forms had itself to be transcended."

"The assertion that "he enters into the understanding of the eighth that reveals the ninth" (Disc. 8-9 63; Robinson 1988:326) epitomizes this part of the mystical technique. Visualization practices were used to induce visions of images that had forms. The visualizations were known to be fabricated, but the visions that they triggered were thought to be unfabricated. These reflections on the visions were made during the visionary state while in the company of the envisioned souls and angels. Due presumably to the visions' coherence or intelligibility, initiates postulated the reality of a Mind that was responsible for ideas that took visionary form as images. This Mind was not manifest to the initiate, but the images that manifested its ideas were. The text does not mention whether Mind, in this context, was human or divine.

Once the ninth had been postulated on the basis of the evidence of the eighth, the initiate was ready to move on to the ninth itself."
http://www.esoteric.msu.edu/Merkur.html


-John
 

John Meador

Trio of Mercury, Polyhymnia & Victory as guides

Polyhymnia's section itself lines 227ff is rather short, but Lazzarelli explicitly ties her to the Poet's recollection:
"Beautiful Polyhymnia preserves in her memory what the pursuit of ability
and vigor has gained...She makes it so that poets recall in verse the ancient brave exploits of men in peace and war."

Victory is last, #27:

...620 "But I think there is something more worthy of eternal praise. Through you, after the spirit of man has demolished the battles of vices and has put the trampled enemy into flight, then his handsome head is bound with a starry crown and, fleeing mortal honors as if one unworthy and returning to his homelands' shores as if a traveler, this exalted one accompanied by a crowd of pious men flys by in his chariot and rejoices because he has been received into the ethereal region.

628 You alone may set forth celestial paths. Therefore I beg you, great goddess, give willing ears to our requests and let not mongrels ravage my words under the pretext of emptiness. ... Hence when he has past illustrious years happily, after the enemies of virtue have finally been conquered, may he rejoice with the stars and be received into the seat of joyful heaven.

639 My anchor has been cast and I have touched the desired ports. Now lift up this skiff stuck under your rocks.... This sturdy little boat carries eternal wealth."
<De Gentilium Deorum Imaginibus -Ludovico Lazzarelli
trans. William J. O'Neal>

Another thought:

"The Pythagoreans employed the example of a ship whose rigging and sails sound as it moves along with the breeze; the cosmic ship, consisting of planets and stars, must also emit vibrations and 'rhoizemata', a Pythagorean term meaning 'rushing sound', as they move in the turbulent ether. Men do not hear the cosmic music because they have grown accustomed to it, just as blacksmiths have become inured to the noise of their hammers. Besides, the celestial bodies, revolving ceaselessly in their circular orbits, continually produce their harmonies so that there is no interval of silence from which the cosmic music can be discerned. Absolute silence reigns in the region beyond the cosmos where dwell the numbers and the One; thus the Pythagoreans sometimes refer to the One as 'Sige' or silence."
-Peter Gorman: Pythagoras, A Life, 1979.
 

Huck

this eighth and ninth, you cited, is from a different model - just another number game. You cannot add apples and oranges.

Mercury has - in the Lazzarelli-model - the 9, "cause" the Chaldean row is used. Another model, also using the Chaldean row, has him with the "8".

Do we agree, that Saturn-Jupiter-Mars is a badly composed triade, but as Lazzarelli 4-5-6 in the number row of Lazzirelli "logical"? Jupiter-Mars-Sun would be common and logical, but then we have the unlogical Lazzarelli 5-6-7.

And all the quarrel is, cause you haven't the right idea from the composition :)

10 - 2 - 10 (+ 5) .. not bey elegant.
 

John Meador

Lazzarelli and Hermetic initiation

Hi Huck,
you wrote:
"this eighth and ninth, you cited, is from a different model - just another number game. You cannot add apples and oranges."

The point of bringing up the discourse on the 8th and the 9th is that recent thought has proposed that this was an initiatory Hermetic text; that is it was used in Hermetic rituals. It is not at all a number game. Hermes attains unification with the 9th:
"In the Hermetic system, a person who was having a vision had transcended his bodily senses and had, as such, ascended beyond the physical realm of the seven planetary heavens. The Hermetists' mind or self found itself in a condition of existence that was entirely literal, even though it was mental rather than bodily. Visionary experience was not a state of consciousness but a state of being, a discrete rank or stage in the great chain of being...Once the ninth had been postulated on the basis of the evidence of the eighth, the initiate was ready to move on to the ninth itself. The postulation of Mind was to be used to induce a purely intelligible experience of the divine Creator of "those <that are> in the spirit." Having perceived the intellectual necessity, during visionary experience, of postulating a Mind beyond one's own, a Hermetist was to accomplish a final ontological movement by proceeding from vision to union..."Father, I see the universe and I see myself in mind."

"This, my child, is rebirth: no longer picturing things in three bodily dimensions. (C.H. XIII.13; Copenhaver 1992:52)"
http://www.esoteric.msu.edu/Merkur.html

So, if Lazzarelli had Hermetic initiation this early, it might have involved a similar text.

Huck wrote:
"Mercury has - in the Lazzarelli-model - the 9, "cause" the Chaldean row is used. Another model, also using the Chaldean row, has him with the "8". "

Well, I could start "hair-drawing" about the Sabaeans and Hermetism but ... :)

As for the possibility that Lazzarelli intended the 27 to be viewed as triads- I
haven't formed an opinion yet. I just noticed that there seemed to be a symmetry...

Huck wrote:
"10 - 2 - 10 (+ 5) .. not bey elegant."

Can you clarify what you mean there?

-John
 

Huck

John Meador said:
Hi Huck,
you wrote:
"this eighth and ninth, you cited, is from a different model - just another number game. You cannot add apples and oranges."

The point of bringing up the discourse on the 8th and the 9th is that recent thought has proposed that this was an initiatory Hermetic text; that is it was used in Hermetic rituals. It is not at all a number game. Hermes attains unification with the 9th:


"ninth" indicates a number, ergo it has aspects of a "number-game". Many mystical texts deal with numbers, or better, mathematical structures. We did discuss recently Pythagoras, a number-master, who also is involved in mystical speculation.

"In the Hermetic system, a person who was having a vision had transcended his bodily senses and had, as such, ascended beyond the physical realm of the seven planetary heavens. The Hermetists' mind or self found itself in a condition of existence that was entirely literal, even though it was mental rather than bodily. Visionary experience was not a state of consciousness but a state of being, a discrete rank or stage in the great chain of being...Once the ninth had been postulated on the basis of the evidence of the eighth, the initiate was ready to move on to the ninth itself.

Well, considering the general farspread lifetree scheme, the especially used structure in this cited hermetic text, is just the lifetree backwards, which means, that "8th" is the "3rd" = Binah-position, and the "9th" is the 2nd, that is Chochmah, very clear, as the first seven are attributed to 7 planetary spheres.
All this means, that this cited hermetic text counts different than Lazzarelli, who presents the spheres from 4-7 and an attribution of this hermetic "9th" with Lazzarelli-Mercur-9 is mathematically, schematically and what else simply nonsense, good for confusion and good for nothing else. ... :) please excuse my temperament in this question, I'm not interested to contribute to generally farspread confusions, so its necessary to use clear words. I said: nonsense .. :).

The postulation of Mind was to be used to induce a purely intelligible experience of the divine Creator of "those <that are> in the spirit." Having perceived the intellectual necessity, during visionary experience, of postulating a Mind beyond one's own, a Hermetist was to accomplish a final ontological movement by proceeding from vision to union..."Father, I see the universe and I see myself in mind."

"This, my child, is rebirth: no longer picturing things in three bodily dimensions. (C.H. XIII.13; Copenhaver 1992:52)"
http://www.esoteric.msu.edu/Merkur.html

So, if Lazzarelli had Hermetic initiation this early, it might have involved a similar text.

You can clearly see, that Lazzarelli uses Mantega 50-41 in sequence, then two extra elements, and then Mantegna 20-11, I don't see, what sort of number-devil tells you anything about a 3x9-scheme, these are two 10's in structure :)... it is, as if you don't see, what's open to everybody eyes, struggling your mind with informations which you got elsewhere, but not from the text in observation.

Huck wrote:
"Mercury has - in the Lazzarelli-model - the 9, "cause" the Chaldean row is used. Another model, also using the Chaldean row, has him with the "8". "

Well, I could start "hair-drawing" about the Sabaeans and Hermetism but ... :)

As for the possibility that Lazzarelli intended the 27 to be viewed as triads- I
haven't formed an opinion yet. I just noticed that there seemed to be a symmetry...

Huck wrote:
"10 - 2 - 10 (+ 5) .. not bey elegant."

Can you clarify what you mean there?

-John
"... not very elegant"
 

John Meador

number-devils!!! I like that...

Hi Huck,
I am probably squeezing Lazzarelli too hard (I almost heard him squeal!) :)
I think it may be incautious to make close comparisons to Cabala (considering no references in the poem I can detect) or to the "Mantegna" (with Lothar's recent speculations concerning priority).
As far as 27, triads and nines... the 27 are not numbered in the poem so maybe I'd better let it go... Polyhymnia speaks under the Prime Cause and then Urania speaks next- there seems to be another thread being woven in the poem...I can't pretend I truly recognize yet what that is.

"10 - 2 - 10 (+ 5) .. not very elegant."

perhaps there is more yet to observe...

-John
 

Huck

John Meador said:
Hi Huck,
I am probably squeezing Lazzarelli too hard (I almost heard him squeal!) :)
I think it may be incautious to make close comparisons to Cabala (considering no references in the poem I can detect) or to the "Mantegna" (with Lothar's recent speculations concerning priority).
As far as 27, triads and nines... the 27 are not numbered in the poem so maybe I'd better let it go... Polyhymnia speaks under the Prime Cause and then Urania speaks next- there seems to be another thread being woven in the poem...I can't pretend I truly recognize yet what that is.

"10 - 2 - 10 (+ 5) .. not very elegant."

perhaps there is more yet to observe...

-John

The neoplatonic 10 and the Cabala-10 in the TOL did show probably, as far structure was concerned, no great difference. Cusanus in "De Ludo Globi" also speculates just about this 10. "De Sphaera", a Sforza text just from this time, uses the same sphere and order, that we meet in Mantegna-Tarocchi (41-50) and Lazzarelli. So, when I used the Termina Binah and Chokmah, then it was not, cause I wanted to refer to Cabala, but just create a communicative bridge to transport an idea about the mathematical object, we were talking about (I felt sure, that you understand the terminology).

Lazzarelli is a young man, the whole theme "Greek mythology" is relatively new to Italian culture, it's naturally, that the young man is stumbling around, not really sure, what he really wants. One shouldn't expect too much of this system.
It's likely, that the way to the Mantegna went via Lazzarelli to the final concept, Lazzarelli's Gods as first version, Lazzarelli's "Mantegna" as second.

But surely it's hard work to reach some "security".