U.S. Games Timeline

Rusty Neon started this thread in the Tarot Decks area back in '05:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=40065&highlight=games

I thought I would revive it here and see what happens.

I've seen these addresses on U.S. Games boxes and LWBs: New York, N.Y. 10016; 468 Park Avenue South, New York, N.Y. 10016; 38 East 32nd Street, New York, N.Y. 10016; and Stamford, CT. Pinpointing the chronology of these addresses would be a major breakthrough in dating vintage RWS decks.

As HudsonGray mentioned in the previous thread, the Royal Fez Moroccan, dated 1975, has the Park Avenue address, and I know the earlier Grimaud Marseille decks that were distributed in the US and Canada by U.S. Games (presumably in the 70s) also has the Park Avenue address. The LWB from my 1JJ, dated 1970, also lists the Park Avenue address. Based on this, it does seem that the earliest decks have the Park Avenue address. I would be very interested to know if the RWS deck, mentioned by Cerulean in the previous thread with the Park Avenue address, has copyright notices on the cards or not.

I recently purchased a vintage RWS on eBay. The address on the box is, New York, N.Y., the address on the advertisement card is 38 East 32nd, and the address on the LWB is Stamford, CT! The advertisement card lists an ad for The Ecnyclopedia of Tarot, Volume ll, which was first printed in 1986, so I'm assuming this deck dates from at least then, barring any unforseen possibilities (kids mixing things up, adults switching things around to mess with people's heads!, etc. lol). Also, the LWB says it is a 40th printing, while a newer one I have, with a Stamford, CT address only, lists printing 50. Maybe the late 80s was a transition phase from 32nd Street to Stamford. fyreflye mentioned she/he also saw a deck with both 32nd Street and Stamford, CT.

I'm trying to contact U.S. Games to see if I can get to the bottom of it, but I've already had three e-mails returned today. I'm going to try the telephone tomorrow. In the meantime, if anyone has any updated info to add, it would be greatly aprreciated!

-fof

Still Waiting

Email sent to Stuart R. Kaplan Friday. Was not returned undelivered, a good sign. Keeping fingers X'ed.

I went (physically) to the East 32nd St address in 1983, if that is any help at all.....

And - come to think - my 1974 Penguin copy of Alfred Douglas' book gives their address as 468 Park Avenue South.

I can check all my decks if you want to know badly enough to ask me to , but would rather have some idea of in which years changes may have happened, as I have rather a lot; I do have a database showing their dates so could cut the search down that way....

Copyright...

fools_fool said:

I would be very interested to know if the RWS deck, mentioned by Cerulean in the previous thread with the Park Avenue address, has copyright notices on the cards or not.-fof

Click to expand...

It is my opinion that the copyright of U.S. Games for the RWS deck is a "scarecrow" and not a genuine copyright.
The way that this 'scarecrow' stuff can happen is that the RWS deck is (opinion, subject to updating) in the public domain (free to all), however,
U.S. Games changed a few colors or made some minimum changes to the original deck and then filed for a copyright. They, U.S. Games, may have a copyright on THEIR very slightly revised version but NOT a copyright on the RWS original deck.
It would be simliar to my obtaining a photograph of The Mona Lisa and then changing a few colors and then copyrighting the image. Do I then have a copyright on Da Vinci's painting? NO! I have a copyright on my adjusted Mona Lisa but NOT on the original.
I believe that the RWS deck may be in the public domain.
You can also check out (link)
http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/faq.htm which contains relevant info on the copyright of the RWS deck.
It is my opinion that U.S. Games has a copyright ONLY on their version of the original cards and NOT on the RWS deck itself.

gregory - If you went physically to 32 East 38nd in 1983, that would fit the timeline that seems to be unfolding. And if you have a book from 1974 with 468 Park Avenue, that would also fit.

A rough timeline guide as it looks right now probably looks something like this, there may be some overlapping:

1968-80: 468 Park Avenue
1980-90: 32 East 38th
1990-Present: Stamford, CT

If you feel like looking up dates for comparison that would be great. You could either confirm or deny what we already know, and possibly narrow the field to more precise dates.

-fof

Well OK - I will look at a few decks this evening - though my phone has struck again.....

@fools_fools
Maybe you could ask my friend AT member Fulgour who has a very great knowledge on this thema.
I believe there are already quite a lot of informations on this subject on ATF.

Here are some informations from several decks of my collection, maybe it can help you:

. no copyright RWS
(it means that there is no copyright on the cards)
Distributed by US Games (yellow box)
LWB with the 468 PARK AVENUE SOUTH . NEW YORK, N. Y. 10016 adress

. no copyright RWS
Distributed by US Games (yellow box)
LWB with the 38 EAST 32 STREET NEW YORK, N. Y. 10016 adress

BTW the registration date for the 1971 US Games copyright is 11 June 1982

. Royal Fez Moroccan
US Games copyright 1975 copyright
LWB with the 38 EAST 32 STREET adress

. 1JJ Tarot
distributed by Waddington Playing Cards Co. LTD.
40 Wakefield Road, Leeds LS10 3TP, Yorkshire england
LWB from US Games with the 468 Park Avenue South adress

. An advertising card from a Grimaud TdM with english titles, a 1963 copyright on the card and a very thick cardstock (described as deck 03 in my thread on Grimaud TdM) has a US-Games stamp on it with the Park Avenue adress

. Morgan's Tarot
LWB US-Games copyright 1983
Adress: 38 East 32nd Street

. Karma Tarot
US Games copyright 1983
Adress: Stamford, CT 06902 USA

Best regards

OK –

I only have one from Park Avenue, a Rider Waite dated 1971.

As mentioned, my book has the Park Avenue address in 1974.

My Hermetic, dated 1979, has the 32nd Street address (aka NY 10016)

Everything else has this address – the last is my Cat People, dated 1985 - until my Renaissance and Tarot of the Ages – 1987 and 1988 respectively – which are from Stamford.

Let’s see if Mr Kaplan agrees…..

When the "Swiss 1JJ" first came on the market,
SRK had high hopes. His book came out in 1970
referencing New York City (oh brave new world)
but the cards give us...468 Park Avenue South.
I think he rented closet space in the basement.

Thanks coredil and gregory.

The evidence seems to show U.S. Games at 468 Park Avenue till around 74-75. Then at East 38th till sometime in the early to mid 80s. It's hard to say for sure, as the advertisement card and the LWB have different addresses in some decks.

This scenario is a little different than what I was thinking, but it looks like a fairly good model to work from.

Yep gregory, Mr. Kaplan could clear this all up quickly. Still keeping fingers crossed.

-fof