Two Moons

Why doesn’t The Moon trump correspond to the Moon 'planet'?

similia said:

Hebrew has three forms of letter, Simple, Double and Mother. The 12 Simple letters are given the signs of the zodiac, and the 7 Double letters are given the planets. The 3 Mother letters get the primary elements.

The Moon card can't have the Moon planet, as Qoph is a Simple letter and so must get a sign, or else we have to re-order the trumps/planets again and throw some more spanners into the mix

Click to expand...

So, why....

2=Priestess=Gimel=Moon
18=The Moon=Qoph=Pisces

and not...

2=The Moon=Gimel=Moon
18=Priestess=Qoph=Pisces

???
???
-?-
-?-
-?-

As was pointed out, kabbalah has attributed astro stuff to Hebrew letters. There are three kinds of letters. The three Mother letters are the elements (leaving out Earth), Double letters are the planets (there are 7 of them!), and Single letters are the signs (12 of them!). (I think single and double have to do with having one and two pronunciations. But don't quote me!)

From what I understand, the assignment of Hebrew double letters to the planets was a bit fluid (at least to the Golden Dawners), so it was easier to assign majors to planets.

But the tarot assignments of the single letters/signs are in order Aries to Pisces, with planets and elements sprinkled in between. (But not randomly. The Hebrew letters are in aphabetical order Fool to Universe.)

Aries Emperor 4
Taurus Hierophant 5
Gemini Lovers 6
Cancer Chariot 7
Leo Lust 8
Virgo Hermit 9
Scorpio Death 13
Sagittarius Art 14
Capricorn Devil 15
Aquarius Star 17
Pisces Moon 18

Since the Moon card is near the end of the majors, it had to correspond with a Hebrew letter near the end of the alphabet. Pisces was properly watery.

Fishin' in the Moonlight

Far be it from me to mess with a tradition of truth - as 1 think 1 see why our Moon must do double duty along the ARROW's path;
all I'm trying to point out is that anyone looking for logical consistency could have made their deck...

2=The Moon=Gimel=Moon
18=Priestess=Qoph=Pisces

...without messing up the sequence of Hebrew letters or astrological signs & planets.

Crowley wasn't beyond 'correcting' sequences where he thought it essential to making correspondences fit.
So why not match the Moons unless it served a specific purpose

? - ?
? - ?
? - ?
- ? -
- ? -
- ? -

Oh, let's not talk about double loops, it gives me a headache!

The Emperor is He -- unless it's not!

But I get what you're saying. Plus, it seems that the order of trumps (in older, card game decks?) was never as set as the GDers thought. If they had known, it would have probably obviated much stress about letter attributions, where to put the Fool, etc.

Good question

At the bottom of this is a very good question - why is the Moon not the Moon in the correspondences? After all, the Sun = Resh = Sun.

Crowley's double loop fits very well - "Tzaddi is not The Star" and I like DuQuette's explanation.

About the order of the trumps, the oldest Milanese decks did not have numbered trumps (true). The cards were not named and/or numbered until much later and then in French.

But this is the new Aeon. Things are in flux and change is everywhere. Just look at the post 1904 World. Good question. Question everything.

Yygdrasilian said:

anyone looking for logical consistency could have made their deck...

2=The Moon=Gimel=Moon
18=Priestess=Qoph=Pisces

...without messing up the sequence of Hebrew letters or astrological signs & planets.

Click to expand...

Except this would mess another order, as it would remove the Moon from its spot between the Star and the Sun, the other luminaries in an increasing order of brightness.

Assuming the order could/should of been changed, also assumes that the Trumps were always attributed to the letters of the Hebrew alphabet which is debatable. Personally I prefer the Moon = Pisces and the Priestess = Moon. I think the meanings of Pisces (and by inference the 12th house) fits the Moon card much better than it would the Priestess, and vise-versa.

But maybe we need a new line in the Book of Law to justify another switch:

Aiwass's little brother said:

And I reckon the Moon should be the Moon too!

Click to expand...

Quote = Simi - "But maybe we need a new line in the Book of Law to justify another switch
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiwass's little brother
And I reckon the Moon should be the Moon too! "

DUDE! You made me have to leave the library and go outside to have a good laugh!

Look deeper

Okay ... I've recovered.

Yygdrasilian said:

Why doesn’t The Moon trump correspond to the Moon 'planet'?

So, why....

2=Priestess=Gimel=Moon
18=The Moon=Qoph=Pisces

and not...

2=The Moon=Gimel=Moon
18=Priestess=Qoph=Pisces

???
???
-?-
-?-
-?-

Click to expand...

because the Sun card doesnt just mean the Sun and the Moon card is not just represntative of the Moon.

Both cards are describing a process of development, or pathway between two sephiroth, an energy or experience, in one case the combination of energy seemed best to be represented by the TITLE The Sun, and Resh which equates with the head and the astrological energy of the Sun.

In the other case, the energy deemed best to be represented by the TITLE The Moon, the letter Qoph (The BACK of the HEAD) and the astro energy of Pisces.

Like the Moon card and the Pss of Cups ... look below the surface, not AT the surface ... reflections can be misleading.

Go ἰχθύς

similia said:

Click to expand...

There's been no suggestion that The Moon trump should correspond to the Moon 'planet' - I'm just interested in the range of opinion on the subject.

Could be 18 = 1+8 = 9:Yesod
or, as I've noted elsewhere, it may have to do with the Saros cycle:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=1760690#post1760690

As there is a Moon above (Priestess) and a Moon below (Yesod) upon the Path of the ARROW, there may be more to this Lunar signification than meets the Eye.
Crescent moons resemble bows that shoot ARROWs...
Two overlapping circles make the pair of crescents framing a Vesica Piscis...
We emerge after 9 months from such a Door...
And our Empress keeps 2 Moons beside her throne...

Could all these be connected to the fish-hooks and other ichthian symbols lurking in The Book of Thoth

? ? ?

? ? ?

? ? ?

tut tut ravenest, libraries are quiet places

Yygdrasilian said:

As there is a Moon above (Priestess) and a Moon below (Yesod) upon the Path of the ARROW, there may be more to this Lunar signification than meets the Eye.
Crescent moons resemble bows that shoot ARROWs...
Two overlapping circles make the pair of crescents framing a Vesica Pisces...
We emerge after 9 months from such a Door...
And our Empress keeps 2 Moons beside her throne...

Click to expand...

I don't know the answer to your question, maybe there isn't one, but that was lovely and interesting to think about. Two Moons reflecting the Sun of Tipareth