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But why the Courts? Why would Waite show the correct and modified order of the Trumps, when ordering them according to the old system would make more sense? That ordering is in itself a GD secret, which he seems all too eager to betray.

Why would he "hint" at the true meaning of the Two of Cups with the most blatant symbol in the deck, so blatant that it is, in context, just weird. Why put the Tree of Life on the Ten of Pentacles, if he didn't want to reveal anything?

Yet, despite all that, it is with the Courts that he decided to omit? What makes them so much more important than anything else?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
Yes, that is an important distinction and, when we extend the theory into other areas it can cause confusion to mispercieve it.

Eg. We 'feel' anger ... feelings are attributed to water and the 'emotional body', and anger relates to heat / fire. So anger is not in the fire realm of 'inspiration' or 'individuation' but it is a 'fiery' and overheated aspect of our feelings : the fiery part of water.

Also with fire ... one thing it can relate to is inspiration ... it can come from 'above' (spirit) , in a flash like lightening (fire of fire) it can come from methodically working something out (airy part of fire) or even from a dream (water of fire) or from a learning experience (earth of fire) .
While we are at it, since you certainly are more learned in these things, here is a question that I can't seem to answer. (I hope we are not too off topic)

We could say that, by studying the court cards, both by rank and by suit, we may get a more or less comprehensive view of the qualities of each element (those qualities that Crowley deemed too universal to be effectively described, if I remember correctly). This, though, would mean that each element is nothing more and nothing less than the sum of the four elements. In which case, if the argument holds, isn't there a sort of regressus? Or perhaps pure Court Cards (Fire of Fire, Water of Water etc) hold the key? Or is this why the fifth element is considered necessary? I'm aware that CCs are more than just their elemental attribution, but I'm left wondering...

Thanks
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I'm not sure I understand your question but if I do, then the elemental attribution is far from comprehensive. The real personality lies in the decans. There you have dominant and recessive qualities, shades and nuances of personality and a lot more depth in general than what the element alone gives you. By this system, each Court is attributed to three Minors, which gives even more information.

The thing to remember with the Courts is that they are incredibly complex because they depict actual people with many different sides to their personalities. You can never completely get to know a Court except by seeing them in many different situations and seeing how they react, each in its own way.
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Thanks for the reply! Of course, I'm aware of the decan thing, but still Crowley ascribes different traits to different roots or "ingredients" in each card. Unfortunately I don't have my Crowley books with me right now, so I may be mixing memories, but while he is not always clear, usually he goes like "Ok, this guy is the --- part of ---, which represts these particular qualities of this element. Also, he has this particular tendency, which derives from his celestial attribution, which when ill-dignified makes him suck". I guess my previous post was a bit confusing, but what I wanted to get at is: since each element seems to share some qualities with the others (as exposed clearly in Crowley's description of the Courts, but somewhat hinted at even in the previous pages of BoT, if I remember correctly), is each element nothing more and nothing less than the sum total of the four elements? Or does it have a core substance that it does not share with the others?
Sorry about the confusion, I hope my question is clearer now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eremita90 View Post
While we are at it, since you certainly are more learned in these things, here is a question that I can't seem to answer. (I hope we are not too off topic)

We could say that, by studying the court cards, both by rank and by suit, we may get a more or less comprehensive view of the qualities of each element (those qualities that Crowley deemed too universal to be effectively described, if I remember correctly).
I wouldnt say that ... studying court cards alone IMO will NOT give you a COMPREHENSIVE view of the qualities of each element.

I suggest starting here and following the links , for tarot application concentrate on the Greek ; their source in the Egyptian and extension into Medieval Hermetics;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element


ETA; I forgot about this bit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eremita90 View Post
This, though, would mean that each element is nothing more and nothing less than the sum of the four elements. In which case, if the argument holds, isn't there a sort of regressus? Or perhaps pure Court Cards (Fire of Fire, Water of Water etc) hold the key? Or is this why the fifth element is considered necessary? I'm aware that CCs are more than just their elemental attribution, but I'm left wondering...

Thanks
The 5the element , as spirit, has two functions; the 'spirit' or 'essence' of the thing itself that 'coagulates' and 'repels' it keeps the 'elemental consistency' - otherwise everything just breaks down into chaotic 'stuff' - 'Hyle' in the hermetic sense or 'undifferentiated energy' in the modern sense. And spirit as 'that essence' that allows the components within the elements to combine. Think of the 'weak force' and 'strong force' in physics , as a way of understanding the dual nature of 'spirit' within an 'element'. (On another level, the 'Four Forces' of physics relate to the 4 elements - mix and match !
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I would say that the Courts comment more on how each element behaves than about saying much about the elements themselves. For a full account of the element, I think the Minors tell that story. They are the ones that tell of the progression of the element from pure and abstract to muddied and solid. The Courts tell how the elements mix and interact, connecting all of them in some way to Fortune (I could probably find some obscure justification for this, but I'm too tired).

Of course there is such interconnection that such decisive divisions are arbitrary and limited. Each Court is attributed to three Minors, which are in turn closely related to the Trumps, etc.

I hate the word "holistic," but it seems applicable in this case, insomuch as I'm not sure what it means exactly. Still, I never let not knowing what a word means stop me from using it. But, yes, one could say esoteric Tarot is "holistic."
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Originally Posted by closrapexa View Post
I hate the word "holistic," but it seems applicable in this case, insomuch as I'm not sure what it means exactly. Still, I never let not knowing what a word means stop me from using it. But, yes, one could say esoteric Tarot is "holistic."
I laughed And yes, I can kind of see your reference to the wheel.

Thanks to both for your reply! Actually, my question was perhaps caused by too much Anaxagoras, with his idea that everything is in everything, and had to postulate another element to pull himself out of the mire
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Well, there actually is a fifth element, but it does not appear as part of the deck, and it is Spirit. That is the intangible element that animates the element and allows them to interact. There are many ways of presenting that element. One is that we have four limbs plus another "magic" one that is our most powerful creative tool. Another is how we have four fingers, all brought together by the thumb, without which we couldn't do anything.

In Tarot, you are the element of Spirit, shuffling an entire universe in your hands, mixing and animating it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by closrapexa View Post
In Tarot, you are the element of Spirit, shuffling an entire universe in your hands, mixing and animating it.
Thanks for this answer: I had the same exact thought yesterday while posting, but I believed it was too weird to say it
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Quote:
Originally Posted by closrapexa View Post
I would say that the Courts comment more on how each element behaves than about saying much about the elements themselves. For a full account of the element, I think the Minors tell that story. They are the ones that tell of the progression of the element from pure and abstract to muddied and solid. The Courts tell how the elements mix and interact, connecting all of them in some way to Fortune (I could probably find some obscure justification for this, but I'm too tired).

Of course there is such interconnection that such decisive divisions are arbitrary and limited. Each Court is attributed to three Minors, which are in turn closely related to the Trumps, etc.

I hate the word "holistic," but it seems applicable in this case, insomuch as I'm not sure what it means exactly. Still, I never let not knowing what a word means stop me from using it. But, yes, one could say esoteric Tarot is "holistic."
Its holistically Jungian
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