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Barleywine's Astrological Correspondences (split from Astrology & Tarot in TB&M)

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Deleted as it was a duplication of my previous post.
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Originally Posted by Ruby Jewel View Post
Also, Barleywine, I beg to differ on the mutable signs. I never underestimate them. Their defense systems are different, but they always seem to prevail. In fact, I am an Aries, and most of my friends are Leos....but I have never forgotten when I was studying astrology with the greatest astrologist I know, John Marchesella, now head of NCGR, told us all that Sagittarius is the strongest of the fire signs.....we all looked at each other as if to say "huh?".... In fact it irritated the Leo so much she got up and left (laugh). That was back in the 80s. Since then I have observed them as I do all the signs.....and I can say, unequivocally, that he was correct. Pisces is like water....they slip through your fingers....Virgo....is like saying the Hermit is a enervated and weak....strength comes in many forms....like the Oak....the strongest are bendable.....flexible.....even mutable.
That would be the modern, psychological perspective. The traditional perspective is somewhat less "empowering." Avelar and Ribeiro describe Mutable signs as "characteristically ambivalent and variable . . . they vacillate between rapid impulses (characteristic of the moveable mode) and the tendency toward inertia (typical of the fixed mode)." Although he has much good to say about Mutable "flexibility and adaptability" and the ability to facilitate the completion of any activity or event, Kevin Burk reiterated: "Mutable signs . . . also have a tendency to be too flexible, too easily influenced by external forces, and too scattered to effect any kind of change. When a mutable sign is confronted, its first response is to change its nature, to adapt, to avoid, to do anything it can, in fact, to avoid an actual confrontation."

I began my study of astrology at the "dawn of the New Age" (around 1970), and followed the psychological model for many years. But in the last few years I moved on into the traditional (or "classical") approach to astrology and have pretty much sworn off the psychological stuff as a bit too "starry-eyed." I also no longer do much natal astrology, preferring horary as an adjunct to my tarot work. Anyway, we're drifting away a bit from the focus here.
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Originally Posted by Ruby Jewel View Post
Assuming your commitment to Crowley, it is possible that you have "The Crowley Tarot" by Akron-Hajo Banshaf. If so, may I refer you to pp. 27-28 and the Lutz Mueller quote. Also, if you have never read "Two Essays on Analytical Psychology" by Carl Jung (Baynes translation if possible).....you have missed what I consider to be the most brilliant book ever written...and I have seen evidence that others agree with me. In it, he describes the "mana" personality (I'm wondering if mana is an etymological derivative of "mania.") which is basically a "split personality" who has never "differentiated" the ego from the demon archetype in the unconscious. The Rx of the Magician is the dark side which is on a power trip....the negative use of the Magician's power. This energy was not a part of The Fool, who is still na´ve, or egoless. The Magician has two aspects: one good and the other evil. From the highest perspective he seeks spiritual truth and employs his powers to that end (ie Shaman); however, he can become a mere trickster (Mercury....remember Appollo's cows), a cunning distorter of the truth, and in the worst sense, the servant of Satan. He is sometimes depicted with a girdle round his waist, and a girdle was the Zoroastrian symbol of dualism. (Most of the foregoing is a quote but don't know the source....just my notes.).
Rather than dive deeply into this, I'll just note that - like my transition away from psychological astrology - I've begun to see less value in tarot as a psychological tool. Most of what I do now is intentionally action-and-event oriented. It's probably why Lenormand has gained such a strong hold on me in the last two years.
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Originally Posted by Barleywine View Post
That would be the modern, psychological perspective. The traditional perspective is somewhat less "empowering." Avelar and Ribeiro describe Mutable signs as "characteristically ambivalent and variable . . . they vacillate between rapid impulses (characteristic of the moveable mode) and the tendency toward inertia (typical of the fixed mode)." Although he has much good to say about Mutable "flexibility and adaptability" and the ability to facilitate the completion of any activity or event, Kevin Burk reiterated: "Mutable signs . . . also have a tendency to be too flexible, too easily influenced by external forces, and too scattered to effect any kind of change. When a mutable sign is confronted, its first response is to change its nature, to adapt, to avoid, to do anything it can, in fact, to avoid an actual confrontation."

I began my study of astrology at the "dawn of the New Age" (around 1970), and followed the psychological model for many years. But in the last few years I moved on into the traditional (or "classical") approach to astrology and have pretty much sworn off the psychological stuff as a bit too "starry-eyed." I also no longer do much natal astrology, preferring horary as an adjunct to my tarot work. Anyway, we're drifting away a bit from the focus here.
I understand what you are saying. It seems we are actually on two different pages. Still, I could never see mutable as weak....would you call Gandhi weak? Or Einstein scattered? Not me. Appearances can fool..... Carl Jung starry eyed? That is mind blowing. I can't go there with you. For me, without the natal horoscope, we are just predicting events (if I'm correct) which says nothing of the characteristics of the individual...I've seen too much to discount the natal chart and the evidence of electromagnetic energy of the planets and psychic energy.......but, hey.....okay...I'll lay off (laugh).
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Originally Posted by Barleywine View Post
Rather than dive deeply into this, I'll just note that - like my transition away from psychological astrology - I've begun to see less value in tarot as a psychological tool. Most of what I do now is intentionally action-and-event oriented. It's probably why Lenormand has gained such a strong hold on me in the last two years.

I can't say I use the tarot as a psychological tool. I just read it. If there is a way to help someone I have a little knowledge I can offer them......but I don't try to "save" anyone.., nor do I use it as a "predictive" tool as I'm not psychic. I simply read the energy that the card is picking up on and offer it to the client for whatever use they are able to make of it. But I think what is most important is using one's intuition as a communicative tool....without taking responsibility for their lives.....which they are in sole charge of.

But, then, what I do is actually irrelevant. Neither of us need defend our position....it is all legitimate knowledge.
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At any rate....back to Temperance card as Gemini: I can't see gifting Temperance to either Gemini or Sagittarius...... either of those two "hot-headed" signs.....both mutable. Nor can I see giving the beautiful Temperance Angel to a fixed sign. That leaves "hot headed" Aries.....NO.....and Libra....yes. She is balanced, intelligent and is not power-oriented. Venus may be lazy, but she is basically nonreactive and goes to sleep during arguments (or so my Venus friend does ...... laugh)....so, anyway, that's my vote.
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Originally Posted by Barleywine View Post
Astrologically speaking, then, the Trumps fall in line this way:

Aries = Emperor (Fire) (IV)
Taurus = Empress (Earth) (III)
Gemini = Temperance (Air) (XIV)
Cancer = Wheel of Fortune (Water) (X)
Leo = Sun (Fire) (VIII)
Virgo = World (Earth) (XXI)
Libra = Justice (Air) (XI)
Scorpio = Death (Water) XIII)
Sagittarius = Hierophant (Fire) (V)
Capricorn = Hermit (Earth) (IX)
Aquarius = Star (Air) (XVII)
Pisces = High Priestess (Water) (II)
Sun = Sun (Fire) (XIX)
Moon = Moon (Water) (XVIII)
Mercury = Magician (Air) (I)
Venus = Lovers (Earth) (VI)
Mars = Tower (Fire) (XVI)
Jupiter = Chariot (Fire) (VII)
Saturn = Devil (Earth) (XV)
Uranus = Judgement (Fire) (XX)
Neptune = Hanged Man (Water) (XII)
Fool = Pluto (Spirit as an extension of Air) (0)

I'm going to have to lay this all out with the cards and ponder it.
I finally got around to pinning all of this to a blank Tree of Life diagram. There are a number of things about it I like quite a bit astrologically:

The Sun and Moon now both have their natural planetary correspondences

All of the paths on the Middle Pillar are now mutable

The High Priestess as Pisces is the perfect avatar for the Piscean Age, which will apparently still be with us until around 2150, at least from a sidereal perspective

All of the vertical side-paths can now be related to Jupiter through rulership (Sagittarius), exaltation (Cancer) and co-rulership (Neptune)

I find a random but interesting correlation here to the I Ching hexagram Wei Chi (Fire over Water), since Jupiter and Sagittarius both represent Fire, which "flames upward", and Neptune and Cancer both represent Water, which "flows downward"

Saturn and Capricorn are now on mirroring paths, at opposite sides of Tiphareth

Venus just "feels" better with the Lovers (it makes more sense than her son running the show)

Taurus fits well with the Empress, and now there are two fixed signs joining the side pillars at those levels

Jupiter and Venus (the Greater and Lesser Benefics) are now closely related on the same side of the Tree

Venus also sits between the two signs she rules, Taurus and Libra, and the sign of her exaltation, Pisces

All of the cardinal signs are now closely related near the center of the Tree

Saturn and Mars have some interesting interplay at the center of the Tree: Saturn (Devil) rules Capricorn (Hermit) and is exalted in Libra (Justice); Mars (Tower) rules Scorpio (Death) and is exalted in Capricorn (Hermit)

Taking it further, Saturn (Devil) rules Aquarius (Star), and Mars (Tower) rules Aries (Emperor), the sign in which Sun (Sun) is exalted, and the Sun also rules Leo (Strength); the only paths that can't be astrologically concatenated in this fascinating interior complex are the Lovers, the High Priestess and the World

Note that I put Uranus and Pluto back to their more typical associations with the Fool and Judgement, respectively; I'm still thinking about that one.
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moon and sun


I'm no astrology expert and have never dealt with it outside of tarot. But The Priestess as the moon makes more sense to me, (1) because the moon represents something far less forthright to me than the sun, so there's a sense of rightness in having it shift elsewhere; it's the obviousness you pointed to in having the moon as the sign of The Moon that bothers me. The Moon not being itself tells me something fundamental about the nature of that card and about the differences between what moon and sun represent. And because, (2) with the moon at the Priestess, we get the sun at the center in Tiphareth with the moon mirrored above and below. I read something a while back that alluded to that, and I'm racking my brain trying to remember which book it was, but it was an aha moment for me. ...Not trying to change your mind, of course, if the other way works better for you, but I couldn't make that change.
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Originally Posted by Rose Lalonde View Post
I'm no astrology expert and have never dealt with it outside of tarot. But The Priestess as the moon makes more sense to me, (1) because the moon represents something far less forthright to me than the sun, so there's a sense of rightness in having it shift elsewhere; it's the obviousness you pointed to in having the moon as the sign of The Moon that bothers me. The Moon not being itself tells me something fundamental about the nature of that card and about the differences between what moon and sun represent. And because, (2) with the moon at the Priestess, we get the sun at the center in Tiphareth with the moon mirrored above and below. I read something a while back that alluded to that, and I'm racking my brain trying to remember which book it was, but it was an aha moment for me. ...Not trying to change your mind, of course, if the other way works better for you, but I couldn't make that change.
The main goal was to put the Moon with the Moon card for the reasons stated in my original post, very straightforward astrological reasons: Sun = Sun, Moon = Moon, the two major "planetary" bodies in the heavens; we often tend to read the Moon card as emotions by default anyway unless we follow Aleister Crowley's more ominous interpretations. Moving Pisces to the High Priestess was mostly fallout, but it seems to have some merit if we consider that it puts psychic and intuitive Pisces in direct line with the source of the High Priestess's wisdom (Kether), making her even more of a receptive "conduit" to Tiphareth, and creates uniform mutability on the Middle Pillar (along with my relocation of Gemini and Virgo, of course). That's why I called her "the avatar of the Piscean Age." I'm pretty much throwing out the books here in exploring what seems to make the most astrological sense. I could have swapped the positions of the Moon and the High Priestess on the Tree along with the correspondence change, which would have aligned with your observation, but that would have wreaked too much havoc on the model even for me. I do, however, think the Moon fits better below Tiphareth than above it, and that's simply for the astronomical fact of the Earth-Moon-Sun relationship; I would have liked it better if it was directly below Yesod, though.

BTW, I'm not just stirring the pot for the love of it (. . . well, not much ), I've been thinking about this stuff since I first encountered the Golden Dawn correspondences as an astrologer back in the early '70s.
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Color-Coded Version


I created a color-coded version of my altered Tree to display what I was talking about as far as zodiacal and planetary convergences. It's almost like running down a sole dispositor chain in astrology. Clearly, Venus and Mars have a major role in my thinking here: Venus "draws down" Binah, the Mother, while Mars - and its partner-in-crime Saturn - "draws down" Chokmah, the Father, and anchors it around and below the middle of the Tree. Venus and Jupiter are in collusion, and the "Jupiter vibration" is holding down the perimeter. I decided to call this the "Love & Lust" Tree, and it looks like a more actively paternalistic one (the pink and orange paths) than a completely balanced one to boot.
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