Marseilles Pips meanings?

Sulis

Tindak Bungtod said:
Now as for reversals, should I interpret them as the opposite of the upright meanings or simply a diminution of such meaning? Like for example, a Rx Ace of Wands would simply mean, a delay regarding matters of creativity or to a certain extent, the absence of such creativity?

As with anything in tarot the interpretation depends on the context, the question, the surrounding cards and the position of the card in the spread. There is no difinitive answer on how to interpret a reversed card (or an unpright card for that matter) - this is where your intuition comes in :)

You can find lots of good information on reversals in these threads in the Using Tarot Cards forum:

Thirteen's Reversals
Forum Table of Contents

Hope that helps
 

Fulgour

You are doing Great!

If you think of a book as a formal guide~ like a recipe book,
but then experience Tarot as the complete process you will
discover when buying the ingredients, mixing and preparing,
cooking the items and then serving the results at the table,
then you will see...Tarot is a meal, served with loving care.

I do not read with reversals, because to me they are funny.
When I first was learning, I moved at my own pace, finding
what made good sense to me, what I was comfortable with.

If you keep notes, it will be good to save them, and you will
see that as you learn more, you understand more, and grow.
 

Fulgour

jmd said:
Fulgour suggesting that the implements were 'added' as symbolic representations of the elements is certainly worthy of consideration - and would be, as far as I am aware, unique to tarot.
Question: What are good symbols for Fire Water Air and Earth?

Answer: Bâtons Coupes d'Épées and Deniers.

*

At what point do we cease using our imaginations,
and go blank when it comes to seeing the obvious?

Symbols are not literal. Tarot uses symbols. Simple.
 

Moonbow

I think it's sometimes good to 'go blank' when considering the implements and not relating them to an element... or perhaps to relate them to a different element than what is considered the norm. To me, that can be the stage when intuition kicks in.

I know I've read the Coins as wheels or travel before, and likewise I've seen Cups as representing... well.... Cups. I've seen Swords in relation to cooking! And even seen Batons as windmills.

Sometimes the cards laid out seem to speak to each other and give you the answer and elements don't play a part in that either.
 

Fulgour

Moonbow* said:
Sometimes the cards laid out seem to speak to each other and give you the answer and elements don't play a part in that either.
Generally, that's the point: Elements :love: are symbols too!
 

thinbuddha

I think using numerology as a system for interpreting pips is superior to using the Major Arcana I to X for one big reason: what makes those 10 arcana so important that they need to be represented 5 times in a single deck? Yeah, I know- there are differences because of the suits, but it still always bothered me.

I even devised a system that I used for a while (OK- for about 3 days) where one would add the numbers of the card, and any cards directly adjacent to it to get the Major that you would use to interpret it (in a given spread). For example, if you had a 7 cups with a 9 wands and a 7 coins on either side of it, you would end up with 7+9+7=23 = I Magician. For reasons that should have been obvious to me, this turns reading a large spread into more of a math problem than a intuitive act. The only reason I describe this method is not because I endorse it (I DO NOT) it is to illustrate the lengths I went to to avoid the unhappy situation of using I through X to describe the pips.

So yeah- if you are going to use a system, I think that some sort of numerology might be the way to go. But some people don't use such a system. You might be better off letting your vision be open to seeing something that "isn't really there". I think that intuition trumps any system out there, if you can do it. I can only do it maybe one time in 10, but I think you can get better at it with practice.

-tb
 

Moonbow

I don't know what you're getting at in relation to the quote Fulgour. I don't believe I said that elements weren't symbols, or that they were, just that it's not necessary to consider them in all readings. But to me, that is one of the advantages of using a Marseilles deck. It's very personal.

I generally I use the 'basic' numerology, element and Major system, if you want to think in terms of systems. But before all of that I look at the card and don't consider anything pre-conceived. I can see that when first using a deck with pips that it's good to have some ground rules but once you start to use them more, as in most things, the ground rules don't always apply.

:angel:
 

EnriqueEnriquez

Think that energy is always transforming, and see how that is expressed on the minors.

As soon as energy manifests it expresses itself, and by doing so it creates. By creating it sets the foundation of something, but immediately feels the urge to move again, from stability to variety, from harmony to new paths, from realization to conclusion. When energy reach it’s wholeness, it implodes and starts over again.

Energy is active and passive, and then active again... and so on. Physical bodies express their energy as an urge that becomes a thought, a thought that becomes a feeling, and a feeling that affects the body; so it has new urges which becomes new thoughts, and so on...
 

stella01904

thinbuddha said:
I think using numerology as a system for interpreting pips is superior to using the Major Arcana I to X for one big reason: what makes those 10 arcana so important that they need to be represented 5 times in a single deck? Yeah, I know- there are differences because of the suits, but it still always bothered me.

I'm very glad you posted that because I've been touting that method, telling people to relate them to the Majors I-X. It worked for me because what I was actually doing was using the Majors as a mnemonic device to recall the numerological meanings. I just never consciously thought about it, so I didn't explain it. But of course, one would relate the II's to a receptive state of gestation rather than a female pope! The number vibration, not the picture!

You are wrong about one thing, though. The values repeat in the four suits, and TWICE in the Majors. That's six times. If you read the Courts as combined values, that's seven times. :smoker:

I even devised a system that I used for a while (OK- for about 3 days) where one would add the numbers of the card, and any cards directly adjacent to it to get the Major that you would use to interpret it (in a given spread). For example, if you had a 7 cups with a 9 wands and a 7 coins on either side of it, you would end up with 7+9+7=23 = I Magician. For reasons that should have been obvious to me, this turns reading a large spread into more of a math problem than a intuitive act. The only reason I describe this method is not because I endorse it (I DO NOT) it is to illustrate the lengths I went to to avoid the unhappy situation of using I through X to describe the pips.

I have a system noted down someplace that someone designed, that uses Papus in combination with astrology. Fascinating, (and brilliant, I think!) but cumbersome for similar reasons.

So yeah- if you are going to use a system, I think that some sort of numerology might be the way to go. But some people don't use such a system. You might be better off letting your vision be open to seeing something that "isn't really there". I think that intuition trumps any system out there, if you can do it. I can only do it maybe one time in 10, but I think you can get better at it with practice.

I like Jodorowsky's numerology. You get a basic, reliable framework and you can bring as much intuition into the picture as you like.

In short, it's like this:
1) beginning of a new cycle, everything in potential
2) accumulation, preparation for action
3) creative explosion, profound transformation
4) equilibrium, stability
5) new ideal, temptation to go further
6) aperture, pleasure, doing what one enjoys
7) action in the world
8) perfection, receptivity
9) positive crisis, new construction
10) end of the cycle, completion of the experience (permits the start of a new cycle)

Even numbers are receptive energy and odd numbers are active, so the polarity reverses at each stage.

The numbers are not reduced in this system, thus, L'Imperatrice and Trump XIII are two sides of the same coin and both come under the 3 (which fits like a glove,IMHO) rather than saying "13: 1+3=4" the way you would do in conventional numerology.

Valets carry both II and III, Reynes both IIII and V, Roys both VI and VII, and Cavaliers both VIII and VIIII.

Very easy to remember and works like a charm. :D
 

Teheuti

stella01904 said:
I've been touting that method, telling people to relate them to the Majors I-X. It worked for me because what I was actually doing was using the Majors as a mnemonic device to recall the numerological meanings.
This works for me too, added to an understanding of number symbology and the significance of the suit symbol (elemental associations are further down the line and not essential).

Sceptres/cudgels are a bit of a problem in that their meaning would switch depending on which image is used - sceptres imply royality and rulership, while cudgels seem like crude weapons employed in a bar fight or peasant uprising. I suppose a dominance theme exists in either case. More generally I think of them as pointers - an extension of the index finger or hand and therefore indicative of will or intent; the desire to get something done or to move in a particular direction. In their most basic form they are sticks used as basic tools by apes.

Cups have to do with nurturance and the healing power of love found both in personal and spiritual relationships. They also imply drinking/drugs which are associated with altered states of consciousness ranging from dreams and imagination to maudlin escapism. They emerged from the idea of two cupped hands lifting water to drink or any kind of cupped shape for holding and carrying things.

Swords/knives are for warring, killing, cutting, dividing, separating, warding, warning and punishment (Justice carries a sword), or stabbing (getting-to-the-point). Even as plowshares, their purpose is to cut the earth. Since many of them are two-edged it brings up standards of absolutism: right/wrong, good/bad, guilty/innocent and attempts to determine (and divide) these. I include concepts such as definition and discrimination. In a modern context I often think of them as problem-solving.

Coins are money - mediums of trade and exchange. Early coins had significance that depended on the weight of precious metals. With them we weigh the worth of our efforts, and establish our value and security through jobs, home, possessions, protection and other forms of physical well-being - whatever money can buy. They evolved from markers stamped with value or ownership indicative of the effort or work involved in securing them. Furthermore, an article on the symbolism of money notes: "All true money must be derived from a commodity, or at least have a substance to back it up, or it will gradually become fraudulent, or fiat money."

Perhaps we could look at the suits as vestigal tools for:
1) Sceptres/cudgels - pointing, reaching
2) Cups - holding, carrying
3) Swords - cutting, separating
4) Coins - securing, commodifying

Pair these with the Major Arcana of the same number and see what emerges.

It helps if you devise a storyline that goes with each suit emphasizing how each suit fares differently under the forces of each Major or stage in the number sequence. It's usually easier to remember what happens in the story. An example of such a story (without the majors & based on the RWS deck) appears in _21 Ways to Read a Tarot Card_ - showing what happens to each suit when taking a day-hike over a mountain.

Mary