What's so great about the Jacques Vieville Tarot?

Minervasaltar

jmd said:
Personally, I think that the addition of numbers is evident given both the manner in which they appear on this deck, and the lack of numbers on relatively many very early cards and decks.

Which 'relatively many very early cards and decks' do you mean exactly?

In any case, a wonderful deck!

Absolutely! ;)
 

le pendu

There are signs that numbers started to work their way into the cards pretty early, but many early decks don't have numbers on them. The Visconti decks of course are an example of this, also the Cary Sheet, which has a pretty obvious connection to the TdM. There's also The Rothschild Sheet, and others... This thread might be interesting: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=678220

However, some cards DO show numbers on them at a very early stage like the ones here

When looking at the batons in the Vieville deck, I like the flower there, even if it doesn't hold a spot for a number in other decks. When I compare the three of batons of the Vieville, Dodal, and Conver.. well.. the Vieville seems "balanced" and more natural to me.. but that is just my opinon and taste.

I never noticed this before minervasaltar, thanks for pointing it out! I notice the Cary Sheet does NOT have the same flowers in-between like the Vieville, but does have the flower where the number is.. so very interesting indeed. Maybe you're right in suggesting that Vieville was a little flower crazy! hee hee

3 of batons... vieville, dodal, conver...
3_batons.jpg
 

Minervasaltar

Thank you Robert, for the links and for placing the scans! :)

le pendu said:
When looking at the batons in the Vieville deck, I like the flower there, even if it doesn't hold a spot for a number in other decks. When I compare the three of batons of the Vieville, Dodal, and Conver.. well.. the Vieville seems "balanced" and more natural to me.. but that is just my opinon and taste.

I 'grew up' (in the few months that I'm studying the TdM :D) with the Conver, and to me three of Batons is all about enthousiastic ambition, with a chance of failure because there is no stable base yet. So to me the flowers in the Vieville card add some kind of artificial (because it should be the batond that provide the stability, not the flowers) stability that shouldn't be there. ;)
But you are right, it's a matter of taste, and if the Vieville was your starting point it will probably forever be your 'core-tarot'.

I never noticed this before minervasaltar, thanks for pointing it out!

You are welcome! :) I love to make up for my lack of historical knowledge with my observational skills.

I notice the Cary Sheet does NOT have the same flowers in-between like the Vieville, but does have the flower where the number is.. so very interesting indeed.

That the Cary Sheet DOES have the flowers on the sides DOES suggest that these (and not the ones on top/bottom) were lost in the TdM. I hadn't looked at the Cary sheet yet.
 

prudence

okay, I just got mine yesterday....perhaps I am the first in the Historical/Marseilles sections to employ the parenthetical hug, so be it ;)

(((Robert)))

Thank you for talking so highly of this deck. It is all that you say and more; Old, the images are so very old looking, they strike the chord in me that is always seeking the "original" or the "oldest" of decks.....( I know it is not the original nor the oldest, but still that chord is struck within me)

The images are also bold, they would stand out even on film, I would absolutely use this deck if I were filming a movie that used tarot. There is also an air of mystery about the images, I guess due to them having no titles, and I think that would be a superb addition to any film involving tarot.

While the images are bold, they are at the same time faded....and faded in just the right way. Like on the Death card, the Roman numerals are slightly faded away, and it lends to the card's overall ancient-mystery quailty. (not just the numerals are faded in this card, but they stand out the most to me)

My favorites so far, are the King of Batons...I love his attitude and facial expression. The King of Cups, for his facial expression.....but, most of the rest of the cards are a close runner up to these favorites because of the way the faces are made. The detail used seems so amazing, and unlike many of the decks I have seen and own. Not crude, not rough. Sometimes the faces are so well drawn that they look odd on the bodies of the people in this deck. (out of place?)

Anyaway, I am very happy to have this deck, it is just the right thing to fill the void left by the Dusserre Dodal that went to Japan. :D

I am sure there is more that I can say, and maybe will say...but for now, I am going to go and play with my Vieville. :D
 

prudence

I have a couple of questions right away, if anyone can answer them Thank You.

The Tower and the Moon cards have trees prominently included....are we to take this to mean something?? I notice in other decks that the Tower and Moon cards have human made towers in them, is this a substitution? And what does this say about the Star card then? (it has no tree, only a human made building/tower.... well, and an astronomer with his instrument) Is the Star card somehow alluding to astrology? (a human made construct around something very natural)

I feel like there is a mystery here that needs solving.
 

jmd

One possible way to look at this sequence in the Vieville is to reflect on the visitation to the Shepherd (XVI) and Magi (XVII) of Mary (XVIII) giving birth to the Sun child.
 

prudence

jmd said:
One possible way to look at this sequence in the Vieville is to reflect on the visitation to the Shepherd (XVI) and Magi (XVII) of Mary (XVIII) giving birth to the Sun child.

But what do I take away from this assumption? I mean, in reading the cards, how do I process this or use this? (also, I am as uneducated about such biblical stories as a person could possibly be)

btw, Thanks, jmd for addressing this question. :)
 

prudence

jmd said:
PS - it is in combining the Marseille and Vieville forms that I created my card for the 2nd AT Community project:

ooh, this is nice, the tree and the Tower together...thanks for posting this image.

What were you saying with (or in?) this image? What is it about the tree and its juxtaposition with the tower that makes the statement? Wild vs. Natural? Taming what is natural? Stusdying that which is natural and that which frightens us?

(sorry jmd, you have caught me at a tree centric [or is it obsessed?] stage in my life;))
 

le pendu

prudence said:
I have a couple of questions right away, if anyone can answer them Thank You.

The Tower and the Moon cards have trees prominently included....are we to take this to mean something?? I notice in other decks that the Tower and Moon cards have human made towers in them, is this a substitution? And what does this say about the Star card then? (it has no tree, only a human made building/tower.... well, and an astronomer with his instrument) Is the Star card somehow alluding to astrology? (a human made construct around something very natural)

I feel like there is a mystery here that needs solving.
Hi Prudence,

I'm so glad that you like your deck!!

Earlier in the thread I talk about the connection to the Tarocchino Bolognese, and to the Charles VI cards. That's where you'll find similar images of the woman spinning, and the astrologers. HOW these images made their way into the Vieville is, as as far as I know a mystery.

The Vieville is unique. It seems similar to a TdM from the Fool, Bataleur... on up to Death. With Temperance it changes.. and is different than the TdM for the next 6 cards.. Temperance through Sun, then back to TdM style for Judgement and World.

While the "Belgian" is obviously related to the Vieville, it isn't a copy of it either. Not only are the Pope and Popess replaced.. but the Chariot is different, and the World as well.

This thread has great background on the Belgian:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=69458

There's been some talk before about the Tower.. and who/what is depicted on it. Here are two threads:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=6097
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=58298

As for what they mean? I couldn't tell you, (other's hopefully will join in), perhaps this is a good time to consider Umbrae's posts about reading what you see in them. The Vieville is not a TdM, or a Belgian, or any other deck, it's a Vieville.

The details ARE amazing aren't they? I love his court cards. What is up with that hat on the the King of Cups? Is that how the hat is "supposed" to look on the TdM? Has there ever been hats that look like that?

Have fun!!