A Thoth Beginner's Library?

Grigori said:

PS ♂ woohoo!!

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Glad to be of service. Want the rest ? THAT I can probably do !

Seriously - it is a bit like when "they" tried to explain calculus....

I still can't even grasp what it IS !

Well hello!

Teomat just sent me a PM pointing me to this thread abnd asking about traditional astrology books; I feel like a bonehead for missing this convo when it appeared. Just to add to the flow I'm going to add some of the stuff I PMed, in the hopes it may be useful to peopel who find this thread later...

It's a hard question because the annoying thing is that there isn't one instant "read this and you've got the basics" book on traditional astrology. What you don't want, as you've determined, is any modern sun sign stuff, which eliminates about 98% of the books available. On the other hand, since you're just wanting to get a basic handle on the essentials. There are definitely some great places to start that might lead you deeper if you're so inclined. The perfect thing to read is Lilly's Christian Astrology but it was written during the 17th century and you have to be willing to grok that to make any headway. There are some fantastic historical documents that give overviews, and pretty much anything before the mid-19th century will be the real deal.

Several people have recommended John Frawley's Real Astrology, and I'll echo that passionately. It's one of my favorite books, period. All of his books are fantastic and increasingly practical as you move forward, but they presume a certain familiarity with exactly the things you're wanting to know. That said, I'd really recommend Real Astrology just to get a real sense of the topic as a philosophical whole. Very much worth it as a starting point.

On the other hand, for the essential nuts and bolts stuff there are a ciouple of options that will do the job, but each has drawbacks:

• Noonan's Classical Scientific Astrology is a slim little intro to traditional astrology and PACKED with smart overview, BUT it has a slightly science-y bent in places which can be off-putting for some people.
• Classical Astrology for Modern Living by Lee Lehman is phenomenal, but it may be a little hardcore and challenging for someone just dipping their toe in.
• Barclay's Horary Astrology Rediscovered is VERY user friendly and a pretty good intro to basic concepts, although she uses some modern planets at times(annoyingly). Still you may find it more approachable that Frawley's masterful and hard to find Horary Textbook. Many books about horary astrology come at it from the traditional angle because Horary is essentially practical and predictive (unlike modern astrology).
• And for the philosophy angle Cornelius' Moment of Astrology is lifechanging. Brady's Eagle and the Lark ditto. But they are more extended meditations on astrological divination than user-friendly intros... again your mileage may vary based on intent.

The funny thing is, because the Golden Dawn kind of zipped past astrology other than the basics. Mathers was grooving on Levi's QBLH so the stars were often a sexy afterthought. And because Crowley was a Golden Dawner at root (if not at branch!) the astrology incorporated into their system is generally given short shrift. Consequently, the modern New Age movement has largely ignored it. WHich means most of the books you'll end up buying are hard to find and limited run. No 50 cent Llewellyn titles for us!

Oh, and I don't think it's been mentioned in this thread but Chris Warnock's Renaissance astrology site (www.renaissanceastrology.com) is a Fort Knox of traditional astrological info. Practically a book in itself.

I'll think more on this, but there really isn't a single "E-Z intro" to the topic. IN fact, I've seen the question raised i traditional astrology circles and it's usually shot down with a HARRUMPH because trad astrologers often feel everyone should have to struggle and stumble nd pay their dues. LOL

Thanks for the suggestions Scion and Grigori.

I've googled them all and I think I'm veering towards Barclay's 'Horary Astrology Rediscovered' at the moment. I also came across a website (www.skyscript.co.uk) which also seems useful for learning traditional astrology.

Something that's occured to me is whether I can learn the astrology side by studying the relevant trump. For example, Art is associated with Sagittarius and the Magus with Mercury. Therefore is the Eight of Wands (Mercury in Sagittarius) a combination of the meanings of the Magus and Art?

I guess it's more complicated than that if I also have to consider the Qabalastic side too...

Le Fanu said:

Get yourself a notebook, page or more per card, look at all the cards and note down your feelings about the atmosphere of the card, all the usual journalling stuff, then read Duquette and then Snuffin and write down the factual/interesting stuff, like this card is Venus in Aquarius, or Lady Frieda used an old fencing diagram to contruct this card etc, or whatever. I only braved the Book of Thoth after I'd read Duquette & Snuffin to be honest.

With Thoth, I go away and come back to it and all the "factual" and astrological stuff I can't easily remember, but it's all there, distilled in my moleskin Thoth notebook, and I go on adding to it, my thoughts, comments here from members. I can never seem to remember it all, but it is noted down for me so I don't have to keep rereading the whole of Duquette & Snuffin each time I'm in a Thoth phase!

Life with Thoth is a long term thing...

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I love the idea of a moleskin Thoth notebook! I've only got a pocket Thoth at the moment (it looks kinda cute!?), and having a soft notebook that I can carry around with my deck would be fabulous. However I'm more of a technogeek and have decided to start a blog instead.

As you say, I'm just going to get a feel of each card first, type up some thoughts and then look in the BoT and DuQuette for further insight. I did a little meditating on the Fool this morning, and was surprised that I could focus quite readily - I thought the image might be too chaotic for me, but it all seemed to gel together really well.

Really enjoying this journey so far!

Well, as to your question about the Eight of Wands THAT is the issue of the Decans which is a thorny and murky topic in the annals of occult publishing. I say that as someone who literally spent that past 4 years assembling all the available research in and out of print, and I mean "all" as in every word I can find written on the subject, which is not a lot after about 1720.

I've probably said this elsewhere but the way I usually describe traditional use of planet and zodiac is in terms of a play. The 7 Planets are always the actors, the forces moving and doing and changing. The "forces" that drive astrology are planetary and/or referred to in planetary terms. So Venus is a force, and there are other celestial phenomenon that are "like unto Venus" and thereby related. So the Behenian "fixed" star Sirius has Venusian qualities, but it isn't Venus. But by understanding Mars you gain an understanding of Sirius' influence in a chart.

The signs of the Zodiac (of which moderns make so much and often make themselves fools thereby) are like the sets of the play, the geography through which these 7 planetary "characters" move. The & planets have different dignities (levels of power/comfort) in each of these 12 regions and their influence is affected accordingly. Again, like a play: Mars LOVES being in hot dry Aries because Mars is also hot and dry, but Mars in Pisces not so much. This is where investigating the doctrine of the humours and the Empedoclean elements was a real help ffor me.

Now as for the decan of Mercury in Sagittarius, it is not literally the Planet Mercury in the sign of Sagittarius, but the force it wields is much like the force Mercury expresses when ensconced in the region of Sagittarius. Swiftness! Right? By the same token there are times where that force is useful, and times where it can become malevolent. Again, much more compluicated/subtle than modern astrology's "I'm a Scorpio, what about you?" oversimplification.

Nonetheless (and this is where Mathers was a weird kind of genius, whatever his failings) if you look at the Magus (Mercury) and Art (Sagittarius) there is a certain terrain between them that is oddly (though only partially) consonant with the Lord of Swiftness (aka the decan of Mercury in Sagittarius). Does that make sense?

Skyscript is another one of the best sites. And Deborah's book on the Houses (Temples of the Sky) is the best modern text I know of in or out of print. Straight up.

As for considerign QBLH... I'll offer one caveat: don't try to do it all at once. There's so MUCH material braided into this thing, it's packed as tightly as the coils in DNA and it can get frustrating and overwhelming if you attack it all at once head on with a stubborn omnivorous approach unless you're very very brave. Pick a subject (alchemy, astrology, QBLH, Thelema, Gnosticism, whatever) and focus for a period of time. Whatever seems the most intriguing or sexy or fun as a topic of study. I say that not to be a buzzkill but out of a desire to nurture long-term enthusiasm for the Thoth wherever possible! Spend several months cracking that first-chosen occult nut and then double back and take another topic. Rinse, repeat. They do all overlap, but that can be as much a hindrance as anything...

Then again, everyone learns differently. I may be bonkers and you should tell me to go to hell. In any case, hope some of this is helpful...

S

Scion said:

Now as for the decan of Mercury in Sagittarius, it is not literally the Planet Mercury in the sign of Sagittarius, but the force it wields is much like the force Mercury expresses when ensconced in the region of Sagittarius. Swiftness! Right? By the same token there are times where that force is useful, and times where it can become malevolent. Again, much more compluicated/subtle than modern astrology's "I'm a Scorpio, what about you?" oversimplification.

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Now this makes sense.

Scion ever since discovering that the RWS was set up based on the ancient decans I have been studying the subject intensely.
The fact that the cards are not literally the planet but the force in the planet makes sense. Then when you factor in how this force is also related to a certain entity which is also represented in the same decan and you can see how the set up of the modern tarot is misunderstood. The pictures on the RWS while being good are basically a comic book like simplification of the something more serious and important.

Right now I am working with the Golden Dawn Tarot by Robert Wang. I love this deck so far. The primary reason is because the decans dont have the illustrations on them. For me having the unillustrated pips gives me a better understanding of what Mathers,Waite or whoever was trying to convey when they set up the tarot based off of the decans. The unillustrated decans forces me to get a better understanding of the planetary and spiritual forces the cards were intending to convey. It helps me to better understand and catch on to certain things.

Ever since finding out that the decans were what the RWS were set up with I have pretty lost interest in the decks that are just copies of the RWS. This pretty much makes up about 90% of the decks out now. I know a lot of people on here love the new age decks but they just dont get my interest anyone more. I see I am attracted to more occult decks. The Thoth deck now that it is back out will be my next purchase.

Without understanding the importance of the decans people are divining meanings from cards without truly understanding the root of why the images mean what they do. I have come to see that most people who read the tarot likely do NOT like the Golden Dawn. I have seen that here on AT. But yet they use the tarot set up that the GD put in place. Of course I would imagine that a lot of people never even bothered to research that in the first place.

I also see that most of these tarot guides trying to explain what the cards mean are pretty much worthless in my view(maybe others think differently).
This because most of them will focus in on the images on the RWS and what ever hunky dory stuff people divine from those images. This is cool and Im not knocking anyone for doing but to truly understand the MODERN set up of 90% of the decks out now one must dig deeper to go how it was set up.

The more you post about the subject on here the more I learn about it all.
I have your guide to the decans and I am studying off of that as well.

Scion said:

I've probably said this elsewhere but the way I usually describe traditional use of planet and zodiac is in terms of a play. The 7 Planets are always the actors, the forces moving and doing and changing. The "forces" that drive astrology are planetary and/or referred to in planetary terms. So Venus is a force, and there are other celestial phenomenon that are "like unto Venus" and thereby related. So the Behenian "fixed" star Sirius has Venusian qualities, but it isn't Venus. But by understanding Mars you gain an understanding of Sirius' influence in a chart.

The signs of the Zodiac (of which moderns make so much and often make themselves fools thereby) are like the sets of the play, the geography through which these 7 planetary "characters" move. The & planets have different dignities (levels of power/comfort) in each of these 12 regions and their influence is affected accordingly. Again, like a play: Mars LOVES being in hot dry Aries because Mars is also hot and dry, but Mars in Pisces not so much. This is where investigating the doctrine of the humours and the Empedoclean elements was a real help ffor me.

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Thanks Scion - I like the play analagy. It makes a lot of sense to me.

Doctrine of the humours? I vaguely remember reading some of Melancholic's posts on this and how he applies it to the TdM. I remember one of his posts where he explains how the elements (fire, water, air and earth) are actually just titles that are determined by various combinations of the humour qualities (hot, dry, moist and cold), and NOT by the physical properties of fire, water etc.
Well...that's what I THINK he was saying. I'll read up more on this...

Scion said:

As for considerign QBLH... I'll offer one caveat: don't try to do it all at once. There's so MUCH material braided into this thing, it's packed as tightly as the coils in DNA and it can get frustrating and overwhelming if you attack it all at once head on with a stubborn omnivorous approach unless you're very very brave. Pick a subject (alchemy, astrology, QBLH, Thelema, Gnosticism, whatever) and focus for a period of time. Whatever seems the most intriguing or sexy or fun as a topic of study. I say that not to be a buzzkill but out of a desire to nurture long-term enthusiasm for the Thoth wherever possible! Spend several months cracking that first-chosen occult nut and then double back and take another topic. Rinse, repeat. They do all overlap, but that can be as much a hindrance as anything...

Then again, everyone learns differently. I may be bonkers and you should tell me to go to hell. In any case, hope some of this is helpful...

S

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It is VERY helpful.

As suggested, I'm going to take it one day at a time. Look at a card, read a snippet of the BoT and DuQuette and just get a feel for it before I start to tackle the deeper qualities. I know these topics will add immeasurably to my learning, but I have to remind myself that this deck (like any other one) needs to be shuffled, used and played with as well as being studied.

Thanks again.

Professor X said:

Ever since finding out that the decans were what the RWS were set up with I have pretty lost interest in the decks that are just copies of the RWS. This pretty much makes up about 90% of the decks out now. I know a lot of people on here love the new age decks but they just dont get my interest anyone more. I see I am attracted to more occult decks. The Thoth deck now that it is back out will be my next purchase.

Without understanding the importance of the decans people are divining meanings from cards without truly understanding the root of why the images mean what they do. I have come to see that most people who read the tarot likely do NOT like the Golden Dawn. I have seen that here on AT. But yet they use the tarot set up that the GD put in place. Of course I would imagine that a lot of people never even bothered to research that in the first place.

I also see that most of these tarot guides trying to explain what the cards mean are pretty much worthless in my view(maybe others think differently).
This because most of them will focus in on the images on the RWS and what ever hunky dory stuff people divine from those images. This is cool and Im not knocking anyone for doing but to truly understand the MODERN set up of 90% of the decks out now one must dig deeper to go how it was set up.

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I can see where you coming from X, and I do agree in general. I guess like you I've reached a point where I want to learn WHY the Five of Wands = Strife, and although I like the modern decks in my collection, they don't give me these answers.

However they do 'work' for me (sometimes ) and for many others, so even though I and others might not know the actual roots, I do give credit to the GD system in that it can still work in a 'veiled' form (i.e as in a theme deck).

I like to think that there's magic in the system which tunes into the magic in us.

teomat said:

I can see where you coming from X, and I do agree in general. I guess like you I've reached a point where I want to learn WHY the Five of Wands = Strife, and although I like the modern decks in my collection, they don't give me these answers.

However they do 'work' for me (sometimes ) and for many others, so even though I and others might not know the actual roots, I do give credit to the GD system in that it can still work in a 'veiled' form (i.e as in a theme deck).

I like to think that there's magic in the system which tunes into the magic in us.

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Dont me wrong Teomat the RWS deck works for me just fine. It is one of the most trustworthy decks I have. Its just that the images represent one area of the Tarot that you can learn. The illustrated pips are good and they do wonders for making Tarot accesible to people who otherwise would not have been attracted to the art. But the unillustrated pips develop a DIFFERENT set of psychic and spiritual senses. To me this is crucial to my continued developement with the Tarot.

Now that I have found out about the decanic lords that the GD used to set up the Tarot I am now incorporating that into my tarot studies. A big part of the reason is that I am into studying and learning about the GD. I would imagine that most New Age people do not give much credence to the teachings of the GD. This seems strange to me because one would think that people who are Tarot enthusiasts would be more accepting of the occult. However that is not the case.

The RWS works just great for me but I am seeing that my readings are getting more and more detailed and revealing now that I am using the astrological and decanic forces to help interpret each card. Its like I have taken a step up into truly understanding what the Tarot is suppossed to represent after the GD overhauled the system. To some just using the images to divine suits them just fine. But as for me I found that I needed to know more about the Tarot.

Scion said:

As for considerign QBLH... I'll offer one caveat: don't try to do it all at once. There's so MUCH material braided into this thing, it's packed as tightly as the coils in DNA and it can get frustrating and overwhelming if you attack it all at once head on with a stubborn omnivorous approach unless you're very very brave. Pick a subject (alchemy, astrology, QBLH, Thelema, Gnosticism, whatever) and focus for a period of time. Whatever seems the most intriguing or sexy or fun as a topic of study. I say that not to be a buzzkill but out of a desire to nurture long-term enthusiasm for the Thoth wherever possible! Spend several months cracking that first-chosen occult nut and then double back and take another topic. Rinse, repeat. They do all overlap, but that can be as much a hindrance as anything...

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This is such good advice (say I, with the tone of one who has mastered all of the above ). I find that with the Thoth I have to go at it intensely, look & study intensely, then go off to something else while the new layer percolates down without me really noticing it. Then I come back at it with another focus, another rush of energy. The Thoth has stopped intimidating me like it did in the early days; I just enjoy it as something long term and enjoy the periods of intensity. Yet I feel as if I am at a stage now where I use it for most of my readings and it really does speak to me. I really am no expert but I feel like I'm getting more & more out of it, more & more stimulation, which - for me - can only be a good sign...

Once upon a time the planetary symbols were in this spot. JUST for Grigori. Unfortunately on a machine without the font I used, they came out as numbers and letters.....

RIP