The unwashed general public & the book of Thoth

smw

I have looked at the applications for the College of Thelema, The Temple of the Silver Star (TOTSS) and the A.A. The College and TOTSS have an application form whereas it looks like just an email or mail to apply to the A.A. That does seem trickier, what to put or not. or whether you have written satisfactorily enough to get a reply.

I was considering applying to the College (if I could actually face more tested learning, hurdles etc) but sifted myself out as I couldn't in all honesty sign the oath at the start of the application "to accept the Authority of the Prophet named in that Book, To Mega Therion." That seemed to be a jump ahead for me. I wasn't sure if accepting authority while studying was enough or whether a sound belief that Crowley was a prophet was required. (it is not off the table though, I am still considering it)

@ravenest - great story

Though not anywhere in your league, a few years back I went to an interview for a preliminary certificate in counselling. On the day, I arrived at this dark narrow 3 storey Victorian house where this unsmiling man unlocked the inner door and loomed over me like lurch saying nothing. He seemed about 8ft tall. (he wasn't) I panicked and said "I'm here for training" he said "No. you are here for the interview day".... ~mortified~ I was incapable of speech and just went on upstairs. One of the interviewers was the first (and only) person I have ever met who when you looked at them seemed to have a dark surround and gave the message " you do not see me". I thought this was some kind of jedi mind trick. :joke:

She would then sometimes suddenly be right beside you and you hadn't noticed. With my one to one interview with her, just as I was coming through the door she threw me off balance by mentioning the competitive dynamic of the previous group interview, tricky, an invitation to notice my own or not being aware of it... no fudging possible with that lady!

On my first day, I managed to be late with serious frost from the tutor. In the afternoon I went downstairs to the basement to go out the side door for a cigarette. The door slammed behind me.... no one was down there and I couldn't get back in. The feeling was just diabolical. I was for an Instant a small child locked out, can't get in, shame...the backyard had a high fence and what looked like a padlocked gate. I was thinking I'm going to have to scale it... how humiliating, will I be seen...oh, no, I'm forgetting, I'm too old for climbing over fences, I might get stuck, with a leg over at the top...ok, what about throwing stones at the higher window? no... breaking window... oh, no, no, bad idea...

Fortunately for me someone came to the second floor window and I managed to get their attention. The embarrassment :joke:

I did manage to finish the course in the end though. My inner saboteur lost...hurrah!

What has occurred to me on writing this is what feelings and things might be triggered by not getting a reply from an organisation, a little like having that metaphorical door slammed in your face, regressing back to childhood, feeling rejected etc, that would be me, though I'm sure a wide range of different feelings and reactions for others.

eta, (from learning this with the Jedi lady's approach) in the transference, your own triggering feelings in relation to the other person(s) how you see them in fantasy and relate to them 'as if' possible figure(s) in your childhood will begin even before you meet them and so unconscious processes will have already started. No reply I think could activate this even more strongly.

La'al quiet fella

Barleywine said:
The same can be said for solitary practice, and there is no support system for encouragement and guidance. I'd be happy to have even one kindred spirit for face-to-face discussion of these subjects. My wife is game, but she's baffled and repulsed by Crowley-the-person (while loving his deck).

From reading all the posts there seems to be a general acknowledgement of the value of a mentoring role or discussion, but the main way of getting this seem to involve joining an organisation, and regardless of the difficulties that seem inherent in gaining membership, many people are not at their best in a group setting.

Alan Moore's character suggests 'finding a magician' to develop further along the path, but this seems harder done than said, but he is clearly advocating work outside of a society.

The options seem to be: to practice alone or join an organisation with a set curriculum.

When I began this thread I meant no criticism towards either model, and that remains.

that said, there seems to be a missing middle ground where people pursuing this path can meet for face to face discussions as Barleywine mentions.

Tanga's approaching small reading groups, reads to me, as an attempt to achieve a similar thing.

I am fairly sure I would be stifled in a group of 'closet thespians' simply because that is not a medium of learning I would be comfortable with, (okay, for me it sounds like hell!) but that does not mean I, or any other hermetic practicioner, is any less committed or earnest in their learning.

From the thread it seems apparent some people are happy working in an organisation and really appreciate the benefits, whilst others might be put off for several reasons; elitism, the difficulties faced by some in trying to join, and secrecy around the curriculum being examples cited.

What I am wandering is, can this gap be closed? We are no longer under the oppression of the Victorian era, nor is esotercism as taboo as once it was. we live in what people are calling 'the age of information' and yet the options of learning this art seem at the moment to be restrictive and prescriptive.

I have seen one magician on you tube who takes on an apprentice, but on the whole sharing and helping outside of an order seems very hard to come by.

there are groups meeting all over the world to discuss the most banal of subjects, education is becoming more and more diverse in its ways of delivering information, but magick and tarot seems far behind in embracing the possibilities today can offer.

this is said with an understanding of the reservations of teaching outside of a structure (nobody wants to be responsible for a Darth Vader), but the option to jointly follow or create a path, outside of an order, seems to be something a lot of people might benefit from?

given the nature of the work, to have 'one kindred spirit for face to face discussion' could greatly benefit aspirants and would allow people wider options to meet their preferred way of learning.

Crowley makes much of the unique individual perspective and the scheme for development he made public, but the idea of a little worthwhile company along the way seems a gap for many people.

do societies aid or encourage their members to act as envoys, to share their knowledge with non-members? the quote from Lon about the secrets being more about the timing of their delivery being suited to the level of the learner, might be more effectively judged in a one-to-one role?

Outside of that question, most prominent people in esotericism, if wanting to pass on their learning, seem to create their own societies, and so seem to perpetuate the rebuilding of the same wheel (perhaps with good reason?)

And yet, gauging by this thread, some people would prefer to forge their own path, but with a bit of company and discussion. (the path less walked being the path of genius etc)

ET is a valuable forum and community and perhaps scratches an itch in the absence of 'face-to-face discussions with a kindred spirit' and by its existence shows that a community exists.

So, I was wandering what people thought about:

can and should societies offer mentors to the uninitiated?

how can face-to-face discussion be facilitated outside of societies?

Or are societies a tried and trusted means and there because they work?

do societal attitudes still make people wary of openly embracing esotercism?

With more and more decks being produced, Wicca being the largest growing religion in the UK, and so many esoteric books popping up on the market, maybe the 'behind closed doors' age is passing and we can embrace more diverse ways of practice?

Lon, in his Thoth book, says that societies are not for everyone and that most of the stuff is out there. that given, from contributions to this thread, a little like minded face-to-face discusion could go a long way?

I am genuinely curious why such a valued and important 'art' continues to be kept underground, and whether this is deemed right for the protection of its community? or do people think it is failing to adapt to the possibilities of modern times.

Al was of the view that people should be taught tarot as early as possible, and maybe with a demystification of esotericism it could become, in time, part of mainstream curriculums? (yeah....I'm a dreamer.....but I'm not the only one.)

Barleywine

La'al quiet fella said:
I am genuinely curious why such a valued and important 'art' continues to be kept underground, and whether this is deemed right for the protection of its community? or do people think it is failing to adapt to the possibilities of modern times.

Al was of the view that people should be taught tarot as early as possible, and maybe with a demystification of esotericism it could become, in time, part of mainstream curriculums? (yeah....I'm a dreamer.....but I'm not the only one.)

You've covered the ground thoroughly and thoughtfully. I've always had the impression that the Age of Enlightenment turned the uninformed masses against anything that can't be rendered in the terms of "hard science." That and the long-standing religious interdiction, even if that seems to be more perceived than implicit. The general public has been encouraged to ridicule, on one hand, and fear, on the other, anything that can't be engaged by the five senses (unless, of course, it's coming from the priestly class).

Threre are modern tools for reaching out to other aspirants of a group-minded persuasion. Meet-up is a good one that I used for a while, casting my net within a 50-mile radius of my location to see what, if anything is going on locally. Not finding anything pertinent within 25 miles or so, I tried hosting my own Meet-up group (the cost is nominal) but that fizzled due to lack of interest as well. Now I prowl the bookstores (or at least the only local one that caters to "our" type) to see what might pop up on the bulletin boards. The only thing I've found is the occasional lecture or "psychic fair," which is mainly a venue for people selling their readings (who don't really have the time or inclination to chat "off the meter"). We used to have an astrology group going here in "hippie-dom" (aka southern Vermont) 30 years ago, but the leader and a couple of the "prime movers" left the area and the rest have scattered. Seems the "New Age blush" has gone off the rose; it turned out to be something of a "False Spring" or "Piscean Pipe-dream" anyway <grumbles and goes in search of more coffee> . . .

Tanga

earthair said:
...Cards on the table here. I also teach what I do for a living. It even involves grades

Ah, now I understand.

earthair said:
With the potential drop outs I always see them falter first and at that point they are waving a massive flag "help - the normal system isn't working for me" to the teaching methods I'm using. This is when as a teacher I have to say, ok because the end game is more important than structured logical progression, I'm going to have to do things out of order because this is the right order for them, even if I know that it's going to complicate things....if you don't allow people full expression in the process, you'll always get clones.

Yes. And this is the mark of a truly skilled teacher.
Not every teacher arrives there.

Most of the time, students either have to lump through it - or leave.
And that's the great question with any education system isn't it? The format never 'fits all'... never mind then delving into the vast variety of people who have all kinds of "learning difficulties" - which I really think should be re-labelled to something else.

earthair said:
Yes - I think 'testing' potential candidates is not only lame but a complete waste of their time.

IMO this is left over from the era of things needing to be secret. And it's just ingrained into the system. Or - as has been said, it's bum organisation.
But also - there's the answer to La'al quiet fella's question:

La'al quiet fella said:
do societal attitudes still make people wary of openly embracing esotercism?

YES.
In the case of the coven in this country. The witch craft act is repealed - we (pagans) can no longer legally be prosecuted. But - depending on what circles you work and live in - it's still seen as unsavoury or stupid to be part of such an idea. Many of us are still firmly "in the closet" for fear of it affecting our societal acceptance and job security. :bugeyed:

And one can still walk on the street, and think "I'd better hide the pentacle around my neck now..." (because last time - someone accosted you on the street to tell you all about how you'll promptly be going to hell, and you desperately wished you could spot a police officer at that time), or "I wish I'd covered my grimmoire with brown paper so no one can read the title".
Or... when you're in the esoteric bookshop - someone wanders in to browse, realises there are books on the shelf on the subjects of goetia and magic - and runs out of the shop screaming.
Well... one just still has to be careful. (faith and belief are powerful and dangerous - as we all know from looking at world events.).
Organisations accepting in new students also have to be cautious about who's coming in...someone "under cover" perhaps?... (I've heard of this).
And this is a "civilised" society. (I grew up in a 3rd world country. Esoteric bookshops don't exist there for starters...).

La'al quiet fella said:
can and should societies offer mentors to the uninitiated?

YES.

The annoying problem with secrecy is a) if you're in it you have to lead an amazing double life of lies (or just not saying things and "deflecting" the topic. I always found this infuriating).
and b) people will just enjoy imagining the worst of what they can't get access to - and openly speculate.

La'al quiet fella said:
how can face-to-face discussion be facilitated outside of societies?

Don't know. But I'll say that the workshops, lectures and open evenings in the esoteric bookshop is one way I've had access. (and this is the deliberate effort of the bookstore host - providing greater access for everyone who is interested.)

La'al quiet fella said:
With more and more decks being produced, Wicca being the largest growing religion in the UK, and so many esoteric books popping up on the market, maybe the 'behind closed doors' age is passing and we can embrace more diverse ways of practice?

AMEN to that! Can it hurry up and get out please!
Bring on us dreamers - we're the ones who make things come to pass in the end.

:cool2:

Barleywine

Tanga said:
Don't know. But I'll say that the workshops, lectures and open evenings in the esoteric bookshop is one way I've had access. (and this is the deliberate effort of the bookstore host - providing greater access for everyone who is interested.)

And, not coincidentally, it can sell books! I'd rather buy locally than on Amazon if what I want is available. So it turns out to be a "win-win" proposition. The only downside is I have to drive 20 miles each way to get to and from the bookshop, which I don't do that often.

smw

La'al quiet fella; said:
the trauma of the difficulty joining as described by smw,

Erm... I didn't mean to suggest joining was traumatic, I was looking at the underlying feelings and thoughts that might surface in the process, much like doing anything. I would think that making an opening post on a forum that gets no replies would also trigger feelings, some more accessible than others.

La'al quiet fella; said:
this is said with an understanding of the reservations of teaching outside of a structure (nobody wants to be responsible for a Darth Vader)[\QUOTE]

Darth Vader? wasn't he taken on though by the Jedi order...against the instincts of Yoda..

smw

~deleted~ double post

Tanga

Barleywine said:
And, not coincidentally, it can sell books! I'd rather buy locally than on Amazon if what I want is available. So it turns out to be a "win-win" proposition. The only downside is I have to drive 20 miles each way to get to and from the bookshop, which I don't do that often.

YES BOOOKS!!! :joke:

I hate the travelling bit too. Especially as the weather gets crappier.

Re: Darth Vaders - if he's "in there", he's "in there". Dah blood will out....

The roots of such things would go much further back than once an adult has gotten to a
classroom I think.

smw

Tanga said:
Re: Darth Vaders - if he's "in there", he's "in there". Dah blood will out....

gulp !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYZoxY3sawE

Aeon418

Zephyros said:
Well, now I know why I got no answer from the A.'.A.'.

I guess I will try again

Which one did you try?

The A.'.A.'. group that the upper management of O.T.O. are affiliated with usually send out a Student exam if you print out, fill in, and return the Student Oath that can be found on their site. (The link is on the curriculum page.) But that depends on whether you wish to go in that direction.

http://outercol.org/

The unwashed general public & the book of Thoth

smw

La'al quiet fella

Barleywine

Tanga

Barleywine

smw

smw

Tanga

smw

Aeon418