The Devil, in a relationship spread

Moongold

AliceinDeathland said:
I did a relationship problem sloving spread for me and this guy that I like and I got the Devil card for: This is how you can resolve any differences and how you can improve the relationship and take it to the next level. Can anyone tell me what it means cuz doesnt the Devil card upright mean like obsession and lust and what not cuz if that is the case then how would that help to resolve and improve the relationship.

Alice, I think it is quite difficult to comment without seeing the other cards and the spread. We are only seeing one part of the story :). The card could be lighthearted or deadly, depending on the context and the question.

Why not post the entire reading in "Your Readings"?

Moongold
 

Crystelle

Well, I'll throw my hat in the ring once again... Red Emma, I think that not only is the card significant, a strong card no less because of its major arcana status and poignant symbolism, but in this reading Helvetica makes a very strong point that resonates with my own interpretation -- the position of the card in the spread. If the situation were different, I might be inclined to look at the card from another angle, even the angle at which you approached it. it is only my understanding of the position and its purpose that steers me towards the other side of the argument.

i think that Helvetica might merely be commenting on the fact that there are two people in this relationship and that to ultimately paint the other partner (be they male or not) as the Devil in this instance is actually playing something of a "blame game" perhaps it is the reader/poster who is suffering from this affliction that you describe.... afterall the position confers a more inclusive commentary on the "relationship" not one person...

MTC Crystelle

PS by no means do I mean to say that the reader is anything of the sort, just trying to flesh out some discrepancies I was noting while watching the post
 

Lilacsky

I just wanted to add that to me the devil represents an abusive relationship, where both parties are not in accored, and most likely the situation is hard to get out of, feeling restricted and barred by our own fears, we stay and simply do not move in any direction, we stay stagnate, to me the devil also is a symbol of natural instincts and following them, sometimes the devil is good because it captures our youth, and our animal instincts, which is of course natural attraction..so the devil can go both ways.
 

Moongold

Crystelle said:
Well, I'll throw my hat in the ring once again... Red Emma, I think that not only is the card significant, a strong card no less because of its major arcana status and poignant symbolism, but in this reading Helvetica makes a very strong point that resonates with my own interpretation -- the position of the card in the spread. If the situation were different, I might be inclined to look at the card from another angle, even the angle at which you approached it. it is only my understanding of the position and its purpose that steers me towards the other side of the argument.
I think it is fascinating to discuss all possible aspects of XV Devil, but what do they mean out of context with the entire reading? Even knowledge that the card is the outcome position may not necessarily be enough.

For instance the Hebrew letter corresponding with the card is Ayin meaning eye . This can mean the Third Eye - perceiving the truth. The Devil, in whatever culture or religion we have knows the truth. The Devil card for Alice could mean that she understands the truth in her relationship, whatever that might be.

Perhaps Alice might get more useful feedback if she was able to post the entire reading, with spread, place meanings and other cards.

But then XV Devil is also about choice and Alice may not wish to do that :). And we may not have had this wonderful discussion about the meaning of XV Devil. Just one observation. It is interesting to observe how political, cultural and religious backgrounds impact on interpretations. Whilst that to some extent is inevitable, I would hope that the Tarot would open other windows, jolt us gently into other perspectives as well.

Moongold
 

tieduptinkerbell

hate is a strong word

Red Emma said:
Okay, I see what you're all getting at. There are more facets to this kind of energy than I have here-to-fore understood.

Having seen so many extremely destructive control freaks in my own life and in the lives of other women, I want nothing to do with anything tinged with that kind of energy. It is exceedingly dangerous. On that statement, I stand pat. And would run run for my life if I'm ever again confronted with such.

But, Helvetica, I don't understand the man-hating phrase. I do hate men, and women, with this twist to their personality. They harm all they touch.
Why, from that statement, do you infer that I hate all men?

I wonder if it could be another trigger phrase, similar to politically correct? When these phrases are used, the person they're used against immediately backs out of the arguement. It's unpopular to be seen as being either a man-hater or a person who's politically correct. Actually there are times when, in
specific instances, both are the best path to follow.


I will get crucified for this i am sure...but...just for a moment...think about that person... the hated man or women. the abuser. the terrible energy.

what happened to them to make them so angry...
anger comes from a lack of control...who took their power away. who hurt them?
What kind of mental state would you or i have to be in to do that to someone?
When a person can be evil would it not be correct to say that somewhere somehow something got to them so badly that they decided to tap into their evil side.? One would have to be so brutally hurt that they decided to let all perspective go...unless they had a problem with perspective to begin with...then all the hurt would just prove to aggrivate it to a point of violence.

I know mental disorders exist. I have one. Bi-polar. I also have had to deal with anger issues. I know how black i get when i am cornered and hurting. i know i get destructive. Mostly self destructive. I take medications so i don't have to go to that place. The power and the energy are very intoxicating in a sick black way and it is hard to move away from it when i have been there. It has not happened in about 8 months for me...that black place...but i have been there.

I have thrown things at people and caused stitches and said things that i wish a thousand times a day i never said. I have hit people and kicked and screamed and broken things and unravelled till i am a pile of tears and sweat on the floor. it takes days to get it together...meds and soothing words and reassurance that i am loved.

My disorder is diagnosed. MANY MANY MANY people have personality/mental disorders that are not.

Bi polar is somewhat chemical...its also caused by PTS. Post Tramatic Stress Syndrome. It has progressively become worse as I have aged and difficult things have happened to me. With each difficult period in my life i have noticed a remarkable change in my levels, and have had to adjust meds and counselling acordingly.

I have bi-polar 2 which is mild compared to BP1 or Boarderline Personality Disorder or Schizophrenia. I only have to take 3 pills a day...two if i am doing well.

I was sexually abused as a child and then raped as a teenager. I had to leave home very young and i had never lived in one place more than a year till i was 29. I have had two car accidents...totals and a bad back accident which resulted in surgery and a perminant disability that has me dealing with chronic pain to such a degree that on bad days I am known as perkiset pattii. My injuries and mental disorder have prevented me from having children and has been has difficult for relationships. I am in my second marriage...I could go on...

BUT. I am not saying this to be out there. In fact I have written a few times...telling people of my life...then taken it off the board because i am embarassed.

This thread made me stop and think.
How hurt are these evil people. Is anyone inherantly evil or is it something that happens to people cause of mental disorders and abuse. I have been loved all my life in some capasity or another. What about some of these people who have never understood what unconditional love is...How bad would it have to be to push me there. REALLY F'ING BAD. I have had it bad. I know I have. Many people on this forum have had it bad. And they probably can attest to having their strength of character tested beyond what they could endure at times. But we are all ok...most of us. HOW BAD would someone have had it to become this way. THink about it for a moment.

Yes. I agree. Some should be locked away for life. Some have done horrible things. Some have done things we can't immagine ever doing.

How bad would it have had to be for generations for some of these families with ofspring coming into the world so angry and horrible.

BAD.

this takes hate out of the game. out of the equation. All that is left is pity and sadness for a world that lets it get that bad for some people.

Some can take it. Some have fragile minds. Some have had years of being raised by someone who had it worse than them....

teary here.

Hate is a strong word...

Jesus abolished Capitol punishment in the new testiment because of this very reason. That is what he was talking about with turn the other cheek. If you look in the greek and aramaic...and in history books like josephus...There are so many accounts of very sick minded individuals. He saw past the horrors they committed and saw sick hurting people. Thats what made Jesus ...if nothing else a respected prophet. He saw past getting even and making them pay...

Most people who hurt someone else...have paid...they are trying to feel better...its sick but its true.

I just want you all to know that i get the devil energy in my readings about myself all the time. I believe its the bipolar...that and the Queen of Pent.Rx Its not really me...its something that I have to live with... I am aware. I have been made aware. I am still trying to be aware.

I also have a very keen mind...high IQ and boarderline genius when it comes to music....lol...takes a bow and does not mind bragging. I am proud of the fact that my bipolar enhances how i see things and hear things. it makes me a better person in some ways....

and in some ways it makes me sick...

Most people with mental disorders are very smart...thats worse. it would be easier to be simple. You would be surprised how many geniuses are also diagnosed with a mental disorder...lol.

NOW all this said...this does not mean one should be around violent people or the like. There are ways of getting away...avoiding...getting help. I am not saying to stay in a situation where you are in danger mentally or physically...what I am saying is to be aware.

And being aware and knowing how to deal is a totally different thing than just hating people.

I am no saint. I want to bust this guy i heard about in another forum stealing from his ex. I want to get cams...get the cops in there. But do i hate him. NO.

steps off my soapbox

Food for thot.

Bell
 

Red Emma

The devil made me do it!

Dear Bell,

Two things here. First of all, I applaud your honesty and your courage. As someone who constantly grapples with the question, 'should I, or not, talk about my psychological infirmities here?, Lately the answer's been 'not.' I used to, hoping that my experiences could help someone else. But the reaction to such posts have encouraged me to not do it any more.

Secondly, There aren't many people who see behind human behaviour to the emotions which trigger it. It's great to meet another person who has this understanding and insight.

Well, I guess there were three things. Actually I do hate control freaks. Especially the men I've known, and now know, who, sick themselves, take their frustrations out on others, thus adding many more people to the long line of mental illness which runs in some families.

Okay, so there were four. I'm in PTS therapy for childhood abuse. One of the hard lessons I've learned is to never (NEVER, EVER, EVER) deny my emotions, no matter how unacceptable they are to society-at-large. Repressed emotions lead directly to a particularly pernicious form of depression. (Unfortunately, I know first hand of four kinds of the disease. Your post made me realize that there must be five. Or maybe, at least five.)

And about the control freaks. I do understand them, and wonder about the childhood abuse which made them the way they are. However, they need to be recognized and somehow neutralized to prevent the kinds of behaviour which resulted in people like you and me being mentally ill.

Effective therapy would be the most desirable neutralization. Many, especially men I've known, fight it tooth and nail. I suspect their attitude springs from --- well, enough of this. This discussion has come a long way from consideration of a tarot card. But if the ideas herein are helpful to even one person, I believe it's been all worthwhile.

Or maybe not, if the moderator decides these last few posts deserve a thread of their own.

Blessings, Bell. You deserve all we can heap on you.
 

Moongold

I agree with Red Emma about your courage, Bell.

You make yourself a little vulnerable by speaking so openly but there are many here also who understand and will support you as much as they can. You seem pretty resilient to me already, actually. Ah, I have had my own challenges in the distant and the recent past, and one does recover, especially with the spirit you have shown. You will recover, too :).

The Devil, to me, has always been some aspect of my own human nature, so I don't quite see him in the same way as some others here. In my scheme of things, we have to come to terms with the "dark" aspects of self. The Devil, for me is about seeing the truth of our humanity and choosing the spiritual path, none-the-less. We all have different views, and that is perfectly fine. I know the Devil, and quite like him. He is only as fearsome as we allow him to be :).

I understand something of childhood abuse and also domestic violence, having worked in both those areas a little. I can understand the possible interpretations of Devil in relation to that, but I don't share them on a personal level.

Many blessings to both you and Red Emma :).
 

tieduptinkerbell

as far as my ailments go...

Moongold said:
I agree with Red Emma about your courage, Bell.

You make yourself a little vulnerable by speaking so openly but there are many here also who understand and will support you as much as they can. You seem pretty resilient to me already, actually. Ah, I have had my own challenges in the distant and the recent past, and one does recover, especially with the spirit you have shown. You will recover, too :).

The Devil, to me, has always been some aspect of my own human nature, so I don't quite see him in the same way as some others here. In my scheme of things, we have to come to terms with the "dark" aspects of self. The Devil, for me is about seeing the truth of our humanity and choosing the spiritual path, none-the-less. We all have different views, and that is perfectly fine. I know the Devil, and quite like him. He is only as fearsome as we allow him to be :).

I understand something of childhood abuse and also domestic violence, having worked in both those areas a little. I can understand the possible interpretations of Devil in relation to that, but I don't share them on a personal level.

Many blessings to both you and Red Emma :).


At the end of the day...i don't really care who thinks what about me. This was not to draw attention to my infirmities...it was to draw attention to the problem with comeing at the Tarot with hard and fast rules regarding each card. Tarot is personal. Divining is Personal. Our workings are personal. How we read is personal. Each of us will see something different in a card. Part of the reason we are all here learning is so that we can see something different too...not just our own personal things. Its called expanding and moving beyond our perception to allowing the collective perception to help guide us to a deeper learning.

Even now I struggle with leaving this information up on the thread. But at the end of the day...as I said...I don't really care what people think of me here...or anywhere i guess. Those that know me love me...those that don't think i am weird...but it doesn't matter...lol...I am who I am. All my experiences give me deeper insight to things like the Devil card.

I am not so apt to jump to conclusions as I used to. I remember getting the death card so many times in a specific relationship...when ever i used to lay them out... After a while it began to bother me. All the things I knew about that card where only the things I KNEW about that card... But I was not seeing everything. I actually wrote 13 here and asked some things...asked some others here. I got a little perspective and started to really do some research...

At the end of it I realized the death card was HIS card...the number of His name...and Death represented by Scorpio...well He is a scorpio. So. There it was. It was not about death after all...but about HIm.

This happened like 6 months ago. I have been reading for ages. Why did I not see that? Its because we have human ailments that cause us to see things differently depending on the situation. Sometimes we are too close to a situation...so it comes out differently....

Anyway...I guess what I would like to do is bring this back round to the Devil card in a spread. The whole reason for saying what I did was to give some perspective about how cards can be different for each person. I want to show here that sometimes a card can mean something totally different than we think. We need to trust our intuition...our understanding and our "sight" but we also are here on this forum to learn...If One person gains some insight to the Devil card then it was worth it. Someday someone will have to do a layout for someone and get the Devil card in a spot they were not expecting it. If what I wrote will help them understand the situation or client better...to better guide them and give them some in depth insight...then telling was worth it.

I want to warn about being so cut and dried with anything. There are NO right ways to divine. ANYONE that tells you that they have it all together is full of it. Anyone who says they know everything about this or about that without realizing that EVERYONE is given part of the puzzle is fooling themselves. The day we stop learning we die.

We are all here to learn..not just at AT...in this universe ...we are all here to learn. Some of us are given more so that we can help others. Its a gift...a privilage. We have to remember to know our gifts well so that when we do help others we are not leading them astray because we have biased beliefs about this or that.

Bottom line is...yes the Devil card can represent many things...

lol...and then again...all this could be for naught...and that Devil might just be a poop disturber...a real Devil...lol


Thanks everyone for the encouragement...but really...lol...I am good...lol...or am I...I do after all, have the Devil in me!

Love Bell

p.s. I am doing awesome at the moment..! so no one worry ok.
 

tieduptinkerbell

this prolly does not belong in this thread

But just a final note about this abuse issue.

The reason its so embarassing is because people react...or don't.
I am not sure but i think its because some of us are still so ignorant of there being a problem at all. I don't mean that in a derogitory(sp?) way. I mean we have not been edumacated. People don't say anything cause they are afraid of getting ridiculed or being treated like they have a disease.

I turned 40 this year. I went through the hardest things i have ever gone through this last year. And i survived. That is JoYOUS and WONDERFUL! How blessed I am to have found you all...to have found myself...

I want to encourare ALLLLLL the other survivors of this year. We are only responsible for today...remember that. You can get through today. Today you have someone here that cares and hears your pain and hurt. Today you have an advocate. Today you can know that there is hope and we do recover. Today you can look back at your year and know you are a better person for everything you have been through. Today you can read this and know that you are loved and have a friend.

Don't be afraid of being a survivor...shout it from the rooftops...know how incredible it is ...deep in your heart. KNow that there are more people hiding out there cause they are soooo afraid. This is the season of love and peace and understanding and forgiveness. Forgive yourself and others for not understanding you. ANd then move forward. Live and love today. Find something good about today...even if all it is is a ray of sun through dark clouds...FInd anything about today and hold on...Tomorrow is comming. And we are given enough strength for each day.

If anyone would like someone to talk to I am here and welcome the pm's
I don't want to hide anymore. I did not do anything wrong. I was a victim and i was given something to carry. Stop feeling guilt...and start healing. Find ways. Make this year the year you move beyond this. I am here cheering you on!

Love Bell
xxx
 

Crystelle

Amen Bell
Amen