Where did Waite get these meanings?

Richard

caridwen said:
.....I'd like to learn more about the Fives though - could you explain more?

That's probably off topic, but in a nutshell, the fives, being associated with Geburah (Strength, Sephirah 5), introduce a disruptive influence into each of the suits, a status quo or accustomed state of affairs is being disturbed. Crowley explains that this is not evil in itself: "The natural feeling about it is really a little more than the reluctance of people to get up from lunch and go back to the job." In fact, "Every phenomenon is a sacrament," including disruptive events. In each suit the disruption of the five takes a different form, which Crowley relates to the decans and the characteristics of the corresponding elements.

La Force

auntie said:
Waite uses the Book T titles for the Minors - and if you look at the illustrations Pixie did, all of them are in line with an interpretation of those titles (based on decans, yes, but if you're not into astrology, you can just use the titles). I think the extra or additional meanings that Waite gives are from cartomancy - meaning not just playing cards, but earlier use of Tarot for fortune-telling, sometimes referred to as "Gypsy," which would have used Marseille cards, or Tarocchi (which were game decks of the time), or the smaller game decks (32 and 36 card piquet/Lenormand) and tend toward more mundane every day interpretations. I think the frustration people feel is in wanting to be told: "this card definitely means this." It's a symbol system which different cultures read differently and has evolved over time. If you think of it as a book and the different card meanings as interpretations, I think it's easier to digest, and then you pick and choose what's right for you. I do think many people choose Marseille over RWS for the reasons you're expressing, and many take it a step further and read with Majors only, and then the Majors take on mundane meanings. The cards are very versatile that way. But if you want to use the RWS "traditionally" - stick with the titles for the Minors, and don't worry about Waite's additional cartomantic meanings. He was a scholar, he's just being thorough. I do think that material is meant more as a footnote for people who were interested. If they don't make sense to you, don't use them. As far as your original question: "where did he get them?" - I think it's safe to assume he's talking about fortune-telling tradition, he may have read them or learned them along the way (his paper was on the French system, right? So probably wherever he learned that), but does it matter? Those traditions were largely word-of-mouth. Where it was printed it was usually just a commercial interpretation by card companies to produce Victorian parlor games as spiritualism became popular, and then those meanings became traditional, since they were available, and in print.

I will admit, Im not good with asrology, thats only cause I have memory problems, its a lot to remeber.

I do like your suggestions about using the titles. LRichad was kind and posted an easy reference charts,

Thank you for your explation, Yeah I just have to through out the book, and just read the cards intuitively like I have been, or I will just apply whatever cartomacy meaning that I feel will match the cards imagery.

IE: 6 of cups - to me is giving, nurturing, helping others out, emotional caring, even a make up (I'm sorry) after the 5 of cups. Get well, sincereity, emotional harmony, feeling safe and protected, great promise, etc.

You also mentioned that I found interesting was about commercial companies. I didnt know that. I learned something new today

La Force

ravenest said:
And to clear up further mis-information (and hopefully some of La Force's confusion ... as she didnt seem confused at the beginning of this thread ... only at Waite , which IMO is totally understandable as there are MANY threads here trying to decipher what Waite was on about. )

1. Ignore the (people do that sometimes)

2. The Book of Thoth is NOT by Mathers, it is by Crowley.

3. Book T was the primary source for Waite and Crowley - so the meanings and titles in it cant be 'more Thoth than Waite' .

4. Usage of the planets in annoting the minor cards and decans has not been clearly defined as to purpose (see other threads) ... so I would not recommend trying to work out minors meanings from what cards are associated with what planets ... one is better off looking at the sign a minor is attributed to.

5. Opinions on tarot, like minor card meanings are often varied and can come from a wide range of sources including 'intuition' .... and may just be plain wrong.

One is better off looking at the sign a minor is attributed to. You mean 7 of Cups - Scorpio, like perspective, resourceful, possessive, dtermined, prowling, fixed, focused, sex, death, powerful, magnetic, production, invention, obstination. These are from my journal for my Minchiate deck.

caridwen

LRichard said:
That's probably off topic, but in a nutshell, the fives, being associated with Geburah (Strength, Sephirah 5), introduce a disruptive influence into each of the suits, a status quo or accustomed state of affairs is being disturbed. Crowley explains that this is not evil in itself: "The natural feeling about it is really a little more than the reluctance of people to get up from lunch and go back to the job." In fact, "Every phenomenon is a sacrament," including disruptive events. In each suit the disruption of the five takes a different form, which Crowley relates to the decans and the characteristics of the corresponding elements.

Oh my apologies. I thought you were talking about RWS and how it disrupted the 5s. Thoth is another ball game - I have read Crowley's BoT and am familiar with his interpretation of Geburah and the 5s. Thank you

La Force

LRichard said:
I'm a fan of Mathers too, but the true author of The Book of Thoth was anything but a fan. Crowley and Mathers, at one point, actually engaged in magical warfare against each other, using demons and vampires and stuff. In the novel Moonchild by Crowley, the villains were Arthwaite (A.E. Waite) and SRMD (S.L. MacGregor Mathers). (In real life, when Mathers joined the Rosicrucian society S.R.I.A., he adopted the motto SRMD, an acronym for the Gaelic "S Rioghail Mo Dhream," which means "Royal is my race.")

I'm glad you reminded me of the Book of Thoth, because the sections on the pips are also relevant to the "villain's" deck, the RWS. Among other things, it explains things like why the 5s are generally unpleasant, why the Swords seem to get progressively worse from Ace to 10. It explains a lot of things concerning the pips about which people often have questions, and the explanations are relevant for the Waite, since the Thoth and Waite decks are based on the same model of the Tree of Life.

This is very interesting, I like, or should I say intreged. Is that book in english? I would like to read it.

LRichard said:
That's probably off topic, but in a nutshell, the fives, being associated with Geburah (Strength, Sephirah 5), introduce a disruptive influence into each of the suits, a status quo or accustomed state of affairs is being disturbed. Crowley explains that this is not evil in itself: "The natural feeling about it is really a little more than the reluctance of people to get up from lunch and go back to the job." In fact, "Every phenomenon is a sacrament," including disruptive events. In each suit the disruption of the five takes a different form, which Crowley relates to the decans and the characteristics of the corresponding elements.

No its not off topic, it does pertain to waite card meaning and where did they come from, as in what resource. So it does go with my question

Very interesting. I have at times interpreted the 5's as more positive. Like 5 of cups being loving yourself, soul mates, enjoying life to the fullest, maturing emotions, unconditional love, having a strong spiritual connection with the divine, etc.

Do have anymore info you can post. Like what the 5's really mean please.

ETA: I have the Book of Thoth by AC. Is it explained in there?

caridwen

La Force said:
This is very interesting, I like, or should I say intreged. Is that book in english? I would like to read it.

No its not off topic, it does pertain to waite card meaning and where did they come from, as in what resource. So it does go with my question

Very interesting. I have at times interpreted the 5's as more positive. Like 5 of cups being loving yourself, soul mates, enjoying life to the fullest, maturing emotions, unconditional love, having a strong spiritual connection with the divine, etc.

Do have anymore info you can post. Like what the 5's really mean please.

ETA: I have the Book of Thoth by AC. Is it explained in there?

The Book of Thoth is written by Crowley and relates to the Thoth Tarot deck not Rider Waite.

The resource is the Book T.

Lee

Just a quick note to say, regarding interpretations of the astrological attributions of the pip cards, one reason that they may seem obscure and hard to follow may be that astrological interpretation was in some ways substantially different in the mid- to late 19th century than it is today.

La Force

caridwen said:
Oh my apologies. I thought you were talking about RWS and how it disrupted the 5s. Thoth is another ball game - I have read Crowley's BoT and am familiar with his interpretation of Geburah and the 5s. Thank you

Its ok caridwen, I asked LRichard to go ahead, it does go with my question when you think about, it does refer to Waite and his meanings so it all good, please go ahead LRichard.

I have studied, read lots on Thoth, Tree of Life or should I say tress of life, but I have memory issues, so its not very helpful, I even made posters etc. to help me rember, half the time I dont rember to look at the poster. Botton line Im just trying to learn and find a simple way around memory issues, understanding, comprehension, without getting confued.

La Force

Lee said:
Just a quick note to say, regarding interpretations of the astrological attributions of the pip cards, one reason that they may seem obscure and hard to follow may be that astrological interpretation was in some ways substantially different in the mid- to late 19th century than it is today.

Would you know of a resource / links, or other info? This would be helpful for me and maybe not so hard for me to rember

Richard

caridwen said:
The Book of Thoth is written by Crowley and relates to the Thoth Tarot deck not Rider Waite.

The resource is the Book T.

I explained why the Book of Thoth relates to the RWS pips as well as Thoth. The two decks are based on the same decans and Tree of Life. It is perfectly okay to repeatedly contradict what I have written, but it has reached the point of an annoyance which I do not have to tolerate. So bye-bye.