kwaw
I agree, excuse me for my flippancy - but however immature or mature the objections to Christianity may be - they are (or should be) irrelevant to the question.
Waite's Christianization of Tarot
I agree, excuse me for my flippancy - but however immature or mature the objections to Christianity may be - they are (or should be) irrelevant to the question.
Richard
Can a black magician be Christian? 
The man in charge of the mission of the Black Lodge was one [Edwin] Arthwait, a dull and inaccurate pedant without imagination or real magical perception. Like most Black Magicians, he tippled habitually; and his capacity for inflicting damage upon others was limited by his inordinate conceit.
Crowley, Aleister - The Moonchild
Crowley, Aleister - The Moonchild
Zephyros
Can a black magician be Christian?
The man in charge of the mission of the Black Lodge was one [Edwin] Arthwait, a dull and inaccurate pedant without imagination or real magical perception. Like most Black Magicians, he tippled habitually; and his capacity for inflicting damage upon others was limited by his inordinate conceit.
Crowley, Aleister - The Moonchild
Some of the best literature ever written is the abuse hurled on Waite by Crowley!
But going deeper, that comment shows a great disparity between the two. Crowley detested "armchair occultists" and others who he saw as unwilling to go the extra mile, and Waite's rejection of "strictly" magical practices was probably seen as something of this sort. This would probably have earned him the moniker of "black magician," that is, choosing the Self over the greater... whatever.
But then, Crowley isn't the person I would turn to in order to define anyone's Christianity, and he was hardly objective about Waite.
Richard
At the risk of being off topic, I just can't resist quoting this episode 
. By the way, gum Arabic is a water soluble adhesive used in watercolour paints so that they will stick to the paper, or whatever one is painting on.
. By the way, gum Arabic is a water soluble adhesive used in watercolour paints so that they will stick to the paper, or whatever one is painting on.Meanwhile, Edwin Arthwait was busy with the "Black Pullet." There is a method of describing a pentagram upon a doorstep which is infallible. The first person who crosses it receives a shock which may drive him insane, or even kill him. A magician would naturally be suspicious if he found anything of this kind on his front doorstep, so Arthwait cleverly determined to paint the pentagram in Gum Arabic, which would hardly be visible. Accordingly he went to the Butterfly-net [the villa where the 'enemy' was staying] at dead of night, armed with this means of grace, and set to work by the light of a candle-lamp. He was careful to make the pentagram so large that it was impossible to cross the bridge without stepping over it. Absorbed in his inspiring task, he did not notice, until the last stroke was in place, that he was himself hemmed in between his pentagram and the door of the villa. He crouched in terror for the best part of an hour; then a hint of daylight made him fearful of discovery. He was forced to make a move of some sort; and he found that by careful sidling he could escape to the parapet of the bridge. But he was no climber; he overbalanced and fell into the chasm, being lucky to escape with a severe shaking. On his limping way back to Naples he was overtaken by an icy shower of rain; and as he got into bed, too late to avoid a nasty chill, which kept him in bed for a week, he had the irritating reflexion that his pentagram must have been washed away.
Crowley, Aleister - The Moonchild
Crowley, Aleister - The Moonchild
Rosanne
I have an associate who considers Ghandi a great Christian.
Apart from the fact he was a Hindu, one might think his actions Christlike.I know Christians who love ritual, love the Mass, love the 'belonging' and the 'old school tie' aspect of Catholicism, though if they were asked to help a fellow human, they would decline.
Did he Christianize Tarot? No in my book.
Did he Re- Christianise Tarot? I do not think so
Did he 'Mythologize' and 'Magic-ize'Tarot. Indeed he did.
Was he a Christian? He appears to be as a much a Christian as many I know, in his heart- I have not a clue. He covered his tracks as they say.
~Rosanne
ravenest
At the risk of being off topic, I just can't resist quoting this episode
http://openparachute.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/a02a5b41-7134-4fa1-b96d-1d8ae0d93444.jpg
Also I liked the mars ritual on top of the tower with the spinning magician and sword
The two old boys seem to have a bit of contention between them
;" IT was a brilliant May afternoon when the Prodigal returned. At the offices of the "Equinox" the usual constellation was assembled. Crowley lay lost in meditation upon the 1500-guinea Persian rug, which he had received from the executors of the late John Brown; ..... interrupted by the arrival of a telegraph boy, who delivered a bulky envelope containing the following message ---
"Notwithstanding categorical imputations sacramentally integrated similitudes undedicated warrants antecedent Paulopetrine typology casually unworthy hypostaticism predecessorial superincission archidiaconal arch-amphibians osify elpidize redintegration status lymphaticus."
"A cipher telegram! How romantic!" cried the Editor, releasing Austin Harrison for the fraction of a second.
"Oh no," said Crowley, "it's quite plain English; it's from Arthur Edward Waite. He repents; he comes back to the fold. He begs forgiveness. Osify means 'dare'; eplidize, 'hope'; redintegration, 'restoration'; status, 'status.'"
"But he says 'status lymphaticus.'"
"It's a disease; he read about it in the "Daily Mail" on the Underground between Aldgate and Blackfriars; but it sounds better than plain 'status'; so he damned the extra ha'penny, and put it. To my mind it's the shortest and plainest thing he's ever written. And I forgive him all." ...
Remembering Mr. Waite's statement in "Who's Who" that he "holds nearly all degrees of Masonry known in England, and some which are here unknown," Crowley dictated the following telegram ---
"Waite, Esquire, Etcetera, Sidmouth Lodge, South Ealing.
"Yes."
ALEISTER CROWLEY.
"Apprentice, Companion, "Master," Secret Master, Perfect Master, Intimate Secretary, Provost and Judge, Valiant Master, Elect of Nine, Elect of the Unknown, Elect of Fifteen, Perfect Elect, Illustrious, and in Scotland of the Holy Trinity, Companion, Master, Panissiere, Master of the Triangle, of J.J.J., of the Sacred Vault, and of St. Andrew: Little Architect, Grand Architect, and Architect in Light and Perfection; Apprentice, Companion, and Master Perfect Architect, Perfect Architect, and in Scotland Sublime, and Sublime of Heredom; Royal Arch, Grand Axe, Sublime Knight of Choice, Knight of the Sublime Choice, Prussian Knight, "Knight of the Temple," Knight of the Eagle, Knight of the Black Eagle, Knight of the Red Eagle, Knight of the White East, "Knight of the East," Commander of the East, Grand Commander of the East, Sovereign Commander of the Temple, and "Prince of Jerusalem:" Sovereign Prince Rose Croix of Kilwinning and of Heredom, Knight of the West, Sublime Philosopher, Discreet of Chaos, Sage of Chaos, Knight of the Sun, "Supreme Commander of the Stars," Sublime Philosopher Knight Noachite, of all four grades of the Key of Masonry, True Mason Adept, Sovereign Elect, Sovereign of Sovereigns, Grand Master of the Symbolic Lodges, Very High and Very Powerful, Knight of Palestine, Knight of the White Eagle, Grand Elected Knight Kadosch Sovereign Inspector, and Grand Inquisitor Commander, Beneficent Knight, Knight of the Rainbow, Knight of Banuka, Very Wise Israelite Prince, Sovereign Prince Talmudim, Sovereign Prince Zadkim, Grand-Haram, Grand Prince Haram, Sovereign Prince Hasid, "Sovereign Grand Prince Hasid," and Grand Inspector Intendant Regulator of the Order: Sovereign Prince of the 78th, 79th, 80th and 81st degrees; Sovereign Prince of the 82nd, 83rd, 84th, 85th and 86th degrees; "Sovereign Grand Prince of the" 87"th degree, Grand Master" Consituent of the Order for the First Series, "Sovereign Grand Prince of the 88th degree," Grand Master Constituent of the Order for the Second Series, "Sovereign Grand Prince of the 89th degree," Grand Master Constituent of the Order for the Third Series, and of the NINETIETH AND LAST DEGREE SUPREME GRAND CONSERVATOR AND ABSOLUTE GRAND SOVEREIGN AND PATRIARCH OF THE ANCIENT ORIENTAL RITE OF MIZRAIM: Pastophoris, Neocoris, and Melanophoris; Christophoris, Perfect Master Balahate, Sublime Master Just and Perfect, "Sublime Epopt," and Knight of the Iris; Sublime Minerval, Knight of the Golden Fleece, Grand Elect Mysophilote, Knight of the Triangle, "Knight of the Sacred Arch," Knight of the Secret Vault, "Knight of the Sword," Knight of Jerusalem, Knight of the East and Knight of the Rose Croix: Knight of the Red Eagle, "Knight of the Temple," Sublime Aletophilote, Knight of Libanus, "Knight of Heredom," Knight of the Tabernacle, "Knight of the Serpent," Knight Sage of Truth, "Knight Hermetic Philosopher," Knight of the Key, Knight of the White Eagle, KNIGHT KADOSCH, Knight of the Black Eagle, KNIGHT OF THE ROYAL MYSTERY, and KNIGHT GRAND INSPECTOR; Knight of Scandinavia, Sublime Commander of the Temple, Sublime Negotiate, Knight of Shota, Sublime Elect of Truth, "Grand Elect of the AEons," Sage Savaist, "Knight of the Arch of Seven Columns, Prince of Light," Sublime Hermetic Sage, "Prince of the Zodiac," Sublime Sage of the Mysteries, Sublime Pastor of the Huts, "Knight of the Seven Stars, Sublime Guardian of the" , "Sacred Mount," and "Sublime Sage of the Pyramids;" Sublime Philosopher of Samothrace, "Sublime Titan of the Caucasus," Sage of the Labyrinth, "Knight of the Phoenix," Sublime Scald, Sublime Orphic Doctor, Pontiff of Cadmia, Sublime Magus, Prince Brahmin, Grand Pontiff of Ogygia, "Sublime Guardian of the Three Fires, Sublime Unknown Philosopher, Sublime Sage of Eleusis, Sublime Kawi," Sage of Mythras, "Grand Installator Guardian of the Sanctuary, Grand Consecrator Architect of the Mystic City, Grand Eulogist Guardian of the Ineffable Name, Patriarch of Truth, Knight of the Golden Branch of Eleusis," Patriarch of the Planispheres, Patriarch of the Sacred Vedas, Supreme Master of Wisdom, "Doctor of the Sacred Fire," Sublime Master of the Sloka, and Knight of the Lybic Chain: Patriarch of Isis, Sublime Knight Theosopher, "Grand Pontiff of the Thebaid," Knight of the Redoubtable Sada, Sublime Elect of the Sanctuary of Mazias, Patriarch of Memphis, Grand Elect of the Temple of Midgard, Sublime Knight of the Valley of Oddy, Doctor of the Izeds, Sublime Knight of Kneph, Sublime Philosopher of the Valley of Kabal, Sublime Prince of Masonry, "Grand Elect of the Sacred Curtain, Prince Pontiff of the Mystic City, Sovereign Master of Masonry," and "Perfect Pontiff Sublime Master of the Great Work: Grand Defender of the Order," Sublime Catechist, Adept of Sirius, Adept of Babylon, Companion Banuke, Companion Zerdust, "Companion of the Luminous Ring," Sage of Elea, Sage of Delphi, Sublime Sage of Symbols Intendant of Hieroglyphics, Sublime Sage of Wisdom, Sublime Sage of the Mysteries, Sublime Sage of the Sphinx, Priest of On, Grand Inspector Regulator General of the Order, Prince and Pontiff of Memphis, Grand Administrator of the Order, PATRIARCH GRAND CONSERVATOR OF THE ORDER, and a MEMBER OF THE SOVEREIGN SANCTUARY "of the" ANCIENT ORIENTAL RITE OF MEMPHIS: "Apprentice, Companion," and "Master;" Discreet Master, Perfect Master, Intimate Secretary, Provost and Judge, and Intendant of the Buildings; Elect of Nine, Elect of Fifteen and Sublime Knight Elect; Grand Master Architect, "Ancient Master of the Royal Arch," and Grand Elect Perfect and Sublime Mason; Knight of the Sword, Prince of Jerusalem, Knight of the East and West, and "Knight of the Rose Croix of Heredom;" Grand Pontiff, Master ad Vitam, Knight, Prince of Libanus, Chief of the Tabernacle, Prince of the Tabernacle, Knight of the Brazen Serpent, Prince of Mercy and Grand Commander of the Temple of Jerusalem; Knight of the Sun, Prince Adept, Grand Sublime Knight of St. Andrew of Scotland, GRAND ELECTED KNIGHT KADOSCH, Grand Inquisitor Commander, Sublime Prince of the Royal Secret, and SOVEREIGN GRAND INSPECTOR GENERAL OF THE THIRTY-THIRD AND LAST DEGREE OF THE ANCIENT AND ACCEPTED SCOTTISH RITE: etc., etc."
http://hermetic.com/crowley/equinox/i/viii/eqi08021.html
(Thats one expensive telegram !
Richard
I figured that the guy Bill Gates who got zapped is probably supposed to be William B. Yeats. Gates was smarter than Arthwait but not smart enough......Also I liked the mars ritual on top of the tower with the spinning magician and sword
We're having another ice storm here. Hope we don't lose electricity. kwaw
The two old boys seem to have a bit of contention between them
Really? Don't think so, it was all one way. Can you give even one quote of a comment by Waite about Crowley? As far as I know, Waite doesn't mention Crowley even once in any of his published materials (nor according to Gilbert in any of his private ones either, i.e., in any of his letters or diaries). Although I suppose completely ignoring the man was a manner of contention, silence possibly being against Crowley the most infuriating response he could offer.
According to a couple of sources, there was a chapter left out of Crowley's published Confessions called 'The Campaign against Waite' - apart from a couple of quotes from it I haven't seen it. Is it published in total anywhere do you know?
I vaguely recall Crowley joked about a period in which a number of titles and memberships were thrown at him (Are those supposed to be Waite's titles or Crowleys?). I think during a period after his membership in the OTO when he was trying to align it with Freemasonry (which he later gave up on). Waite actively pursued them (mainly I think for research for his book on Freemasonry).
I recognize most of that list as actual titles (i.e., he wasn't just making them up).
What is the 'Elect of Fifteen'?* The 'Order of Christian Mystics' were known as the 'Order of Fifteen' (something to do with the Tarot card XV - the devil - changed it because it caused some misunderstandings, apparently - thought they kept it as a sub-title). Not quite sure why a self-proclaimed 'Christian' order should name themselves after the Devil trump - but they were Theosophists, so I presume its related to Blavatsky's Luciferian ideas. They used the Gra attributions to the Tarot (as published by Westcott) with Fool as Shin - Waite knew of them (he reviewed their two books on the Tarot in the 'Occult Review' - haven't read it though, so don't know what his views of them were).
Kwaw
*edited to add: The 'Elect of Fifteen' has nothing to do with the 'Order of Fifteen'. It is the masonic 'Tenth Grade of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite'.
quote:
"This degree is a continuation of the series known as the Elu, or Elect degrees, and recounts in detail the mode of the arrest and punishment of the remaining assassins; and reminds us that the unerring eye of Justice will discover the guilty, and they suffer the punishment their crimes deserve. It is intended, morally, to instruct us that ambition and fanaticism, enslavers of mankind, are overthrown and dispelled by the sword of justice and freedom."
ravenest
Gems from the Equinox has more similar at Waite ...in the reviews ... he was considered a bit wordy.
An analysis of the titles might be too far OT here. Crowley wasn't shy at slipping in some crazy ones ( a certain title when translated means something quiet funny) .... back then some people used to chase them, like awards or certificates ... even trade them, claim to hold and offer them to others to curry favour or 'impress', etc.
An analysis of the titles might be too far OT here. Crowley wasn't shy at slipping in some crazy ones ( a certain title when translated means something quiet funny) .... back then some people used to chase them, like awards or certificates ... even trade them, claim to hold and offer them to others to curry favour or 'impress', etc.
Richard
I think Crowley made up some of the titles, but there are over 90 degrees 
in the Rite of Memphis-Mizraim alone.
in the Rite of Memphis-Mizraim alone.