Abrac
rodney, I started a new thread in the Thoth forum and linked back to here.
Not exactly. The Golden Dawn changed the ordering to better reflect the order of the zodiac so that you would have first the planets based on their speed of movement and distance from the sun:
Fool: Air
Magician: Mercury (closest planet to the Sun)
Priestess: Moon (next "planet" as far as the classical astrologers were concerned)
Empress: Venus (next planet out)
Now begin the zodaical Trumps beginning with:
Emperor:Aries
Hierophant:Taurus
Lovers: Gemini
Chariot: Cancer
Strength: Leo
Hermit: Virgo
Justice: Libra
etc.
These attributions make sense, since they follow natural progression.
What Crowley did may seem, on the surface, as going back to the original order but what he did was so drastic and "out there" it can't be considered as such. Here, in order to understand that you really have to know your stuff, because it really is confusing. Here is a short, graphic explanation that serves mainly to demonstrate what niether I, nor you, will ever fully understand
http://www.cornelius93.com/EpistleonZodiacBelt.html
It has to do with the reception of the Book of Law and certain instructions contained therein. For the Thoth it works... after a fashion, although some would say it causes more problems than it solves.
I suppose esoteric significance can be found, but they aren't intrinsic. Many aspects of the TdM were discarded by both the GD and Crowley, and symbols were used differently.
As for the TdM having no esoteric significance, that's simply not true.
Even if we disregard everything else, the Trumps clearly show some kind of at least astrological ordering that was put in place originally, even if the deck was not finalized until long after its origins. Cards like Justice with its scales or Strength with its lion or the Empress with its Venusian figure all point to some astrological connection. But it would have been natural for the creators of the deck to include these figures at the time.
They follow natural progression, but why the planets first? I mean, there are several times I have thought the Magician could be Aries (with none of the knowledge to back anything up mind you, just my feelings on the card).
It seems like he's making reference to the Lovers and the Tower, and then says something about his prophet revealing the secret to the wise. What do you think that means?
So, can I ask you something? Are you as familiar with TdM and Waite as you are the Thoth? What draws you strongly to the Thoth over the others? And how do you personally feel about the placement of Strength/Justice?
I can't follow your logic here. You are switching from a heliocentric to a geocentric perspective, and back... If we pursue this further down the Major Arcana, the next planets would be Jupiter, Mars, Saturn. The whole scheme is obviously not based on the planets' speed of movement or distance from the Sun, although I see is a recurring pattern of "second planet, first planet, third planet."
The thing is that che correlation of the Trumps in numerical order with the Hebrew alphabet and corresponding zodiacal signs and elements according to the Sepher Yetzirah leads to a scheme that looks meaningful. However, the attribution of letters to planets diverges in different versions of that text. That part is quite ambiguous and has to be 'back engineered.'
I beg to differ. Imo, Crowley DID return to the original order. Period.
Yes, the cardinal numbering of the Thoth is the same as that of the TdM and other historical decks. More important, however, is the ordinal numbering provided by the Hebrew letter correlations, which determines the ToL positions as well as the astrological and elemental attributions.. Note that this ordering is identical to that of the RWS except that Emperor and Star have been interchanged......I beg to differ. Imo, Crowley DID return to the original order. Period.....
Yes, the cardinal numbering of the Thoth is the same as that of the TdM and other historical decks. More important, however, is the ordinal numbering provided by the Hebrew letter correlations, which determines the ToL positions as well as the astrological and elemental attributions.. Note that this ordering is identical to that of the RWS except that Emperor and Star have been interchanged.
I don't believe the Hebrew alphabet was generally associated with the TdM, except by Levi and his followers, who got it wrong, at least according to Waite, with whom I agree. P. F. Case suggests that Levi got it wrong on purpose, in order not to reveal the true correlation. (Levi starts with Aleph = Magician and puts Fool between Judgement and World, while the "correct" correlation starts with Aleph = Fool.)Of course, we can't be sure if/how the TdM and other early decks are correlated with the Hebrew alphabet. For the time being, I'm open to all theories.
I don't believe the Hebrew alphabet was generally associated with the TdM, except by Levi and his followers, who got it wrong, at least according to Waite, with whom I agree. P. F. Case suggests that Levi got it wrong on purpose, in order not to reveal the true correlation. (Levi starts with Aleph = Magician and puts Fool between Judgement and World, while the "correct" correlation starts with Aleph = Fool.)
Well, I don't really know, but the Trumps tell only half the story. The other half lies in the attributions of the Tree of Life. Once you have that, things become somewhat clearer (although not by much).
Now even I can agree that's off-topic, come to the Thoth forum for a full explanation of the double loop.
Ditto.