Aleister Crowley (Thoth deck)

This will give conversational viewers a chance to see

that Lady Frieda Harris experimented with many designs while consulting Crowley, to get the exact images...I like looking at these, because you can see the artist is thinking of different versions...and the work of the people--Frieda Harris's dedication and experimentation... and Alexander Crowley as an 'image editor' to me does not look bad.

If you see the designs as experiments, then the finished deck seems richer, to me...not frightening at all.

http://www.occultartgallery.com/occultartgallery/harris/harris.html

Hope that these scans help those who like to think of it as good art!

Cerulean

Lillie said:

Does it change the 9th gate if you find out Polanski is a child rapist?
Does it change again if you find out he was widowed in a terrible crime?
Does it change it again if it's revealed that he paid Manson to do it? (It's a theory I have heard)

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And does it change once again when one finds out he was orphaned of his mother at 9 because her parents were sent to Auschwitz (father survived & returned after the war), that he survived the Crackow ghetto alone, that he escaped with a younger boy and hid in woods for weeks before being hidden by a Polish peasant, and so for all intents and purposes had no childhood?

I think you have made the exactly right points that we can apply to Crowley and other controversial artists and intellectuals. I gave the example of the great novelist Céline, who was a Nazi but still a great novelist; or the philosopher Heidegger, a Nazi apologist but nonetheless a great philosopher. It's sometimes difficult for us to separate the human from the work: but for me Crowley & all these other figures just prove to me how very complex we are in our humanity, and that people who can be terrible in one area of their lives can shine in others. It is only when we can show that what they do or think in one area of life corrupts their literary or artistic work that we can justify rejecting it. In Crowley's and Harris's deck, and in Crowley's writings, I don't see that kind of corruption, unless you feel that expressing anti-Christian sentiment is inherently evil (which some people do). So if anyone were able to show that Crowley's heroin addiction and spoonging off his friends, or his occasional snobbery and colonialism, had a negative effect on his main writings - then please, show us the passages; likewise for the deck. Instead what we have is someone who rebelled against the establishement and majority thinking and morality all of his life, which made for stimulating writing and eventually gave us this magnificent deck.

Cerulean - from what I understand, Crowley gave instructions to Frieda Harris on what he wanted the cards to look like, including colour schemes, but he left the details of the composition to her, and then, as you wrote, acted as image editor. It was a very rich collaboration, because she had a strong character too (as can be seen in the cards themselves!)

It is a magnificent deck - and yes - I can forget everything I know about the people who created the works of art of all kinds that I love. Just as well - I read far too much and far too many things would be anathema to me if I couldn't.... I would list them all, but have neither time nor energy; it would probably crash the forum. SEEING Woody Allen films is no problem; I can forget the stories about him while I watch - but sometimes I do find myself avoiding them just to stop him getting royalties or whatever actors/directors get. Petty ? Well, maybe I am - but that's the only way in which this kind of thing affects my personal choices - boycotting.

Does anybody know where is Crowley's personal deck located? Is it in a museum somewhere? Are there any surviving first editions of this deck?

It was not published in his life-time.

gregory said:

I am half asleep, and may be missing something here - but did Lillie just agree with me ? WOW !

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Gregory! I always agree with you!

Anyhow, much of what I was saying last night was as a resopnse to this comment by Sansa

people who read the tarot should take into account who made the specific decks. After all are they just cards or do they not have part of their creator in them? And I mean more then just the art work. Don't we respect the decks and feel a certain way towards them? If a deck was created by someone who had an "evil" or "bad" intent couldent the deck have a negative affect?

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Which is saying that a deck created by a bad person could be bad itself (Sorry, I'm totally paraphrasing you there) or have some kind of negative effect upon you. Like it was infected by badness. (or by goodness, presumably)
But if this is so, or if someone believes it to be true, then the logical comclusion is that all decks can influence you either for good or bad, depending on the character of the creator.
And in no way that I can see could ignorance of that character be considered protection against that influence.
Therefore, logically, it would seem that one would have to find out all they could about the creator of a deck, to ensure that you are not going to be infected by some secret evil.
But even then, how can we know? The seemingly nice creator of the fluffy bunny tarot could have been secretly getting up to all sorts, and we will never know until they find the bodies under the garden shed.

Yes. Of course, when we know something about an artist/creator/writer/filmaker it does have some impact upon how we see their work.
But in some ways I don't think it should. The deck/picture/film that existed before we knew the terrible truth is still the same thing afterwards. It is us that have changed. Not it.

Lillie said:

Gregory! I always agree with you!

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Lillie said:

But even then, how can we know? The seemingly nice creator of the fluffy bunny tarot could have been secretly getting up to all sorts, and we will never know until they find the bodies under the garden shed.

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LOL Where did you say you live ?

Lillie said:

Yes. Of course, when we know something about an artist/creator/writer/filmaker it does have some impact upon how we see their work.
But in some ways I don't think it should. The deck/picture/film that existed before we knew the terrible truth is still the same thing afterwards. It is us that have changed. Not it.

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Absolutely. This is what bothers me about this whole thing - surely the deck is the same for all who read with it (well, some like it, some hate it but that is their view of the DECK - that applies to any deck you see) - if it carried stuff with it it would affect even those who know nothing about Crowley - as I didn't when I bought it way back when. And it feels not one bit different to me than it did before I learned whose it was and all that. (The greeny one I just got feels a bit different - but I think that's because of all the excitement when I thought it was really going to be cabbage coloured. I really was disappointed there....)

I love the Thoth, but I don't think anyone can tell you how you'll be able to work with it. Only your own experience will tell you that. I do know, if you approach it with a feeling or belief that you won't like it, there's a high probability you won't. The only way to approach any deck is with an open mind. Frankly, I don't care who the creator is, I care about what the product is, the result---the deck itself. I don't have the same negative beliefs others might about Crowley, or Lady Frieda Harris for that matter, but I know I like the deck and it's been my favorite for years and years. But people either like this deck or they don't, no matter what anyone else says about it.

Nevada

Some of mine are sort of minty green I suppose.
Some days they look greener than other days.

I really ought to get a bright one to compare.

Do I disagree with you?
I didn't think I did...
I don't mean too.
Sorry

I agree with you that I do not think cards can carry something evil or bad along with them, even if their creator was very evil (which I don't think Crowley was, of course).

And how about 2nd hand evil?

Was Wagner evil before the Nazis got into him?
Or only after?
(I have heard quite a few people say 'oh, I don't like him, Hitler liked him' As if Hitlers liking had tainted the music somehow)

It's a weird question, all this about the creators influence.
But who would want to live in a house Fred West had built?
(Yes, back to bodies under the shed!)

Oh well, I don't know.

I only got into this thread because I habitually defend Crowley and the Thoth.
And then I end up having to do posts like I know what I am talking about!
Poor Lillie.

Poor Froglet indeed. No really - we only disagreed on things to do with the provenance of all the white boxes - and I don't mind anyway - if everyone I liked agreed with everything I think, life would be so BORING. On this thread we are totally in synch I think.

I do so agree with you - I really don't think a deck can carry evil. Ultimately a deck is just pieces of painted paper. It's what you use it for that counts, and how YOU feel about it. Thoth can be a difficult deck - but for those that get it right away, it isn't. I think that applies to all decks - but some are more immediately obvious than others.

Wagner - I can't get on with him at all. But he died in 1883 - I don't really think Hitler got to him..... Being liked by Hitler after you die can't make you evil, can it ????