Aleister Crowley (Thoth deck)

kuddos to rainwolf for admitting her wrongs and showing her real nature: nice and understanding

see sansa, we're a great bunch of ppl!!

kissa

You know - the Thoth was the second deck I ever had. I loved it at once. I had no idea there was any controversy about it (there was no LWB with it) By the time I found out I loved it already and so there was no problem for me. That's what I mean - the deck stands alone, without having to think about Crowley if he bothers you.

But he is interesting as a separate study - though no-one should be forced to study anything which scares the whatever out of them. And Satanism - whether Crowley was or whether he wasn't - is scary stuff to many. So is Crowley and whatever he stood for.

Look at the DECK, sansa - it is beautiful (at least, I hope it is - avoid the bad prints !) Worry about Crowley later if you want or need to !

Kissa (I can make kisses !!!)

LOL gregory!! i am sooooo jealous of your knowledge!



do you vant some more?????!!!!!

seriously, back to the thread, i regrettedly admit i agree with you the deck stands for its own, and its stands bloody high!

kissa
or ??

Kissa said:

kissa
or ??

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Both

Lillie said:

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Crowley was not a Satanist, as I perceive Satanists. Anyone who thinks he is, even though they say they know the massive difference between an occultist and a Satanist, is clearly confused.

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I'm actually reading a biography "Do What Thou Wilt: A Life of Aleister Crowley" by Lawrence Sutin. I decided to read a bio of Crowley since I'm studying the Thoth deck. I was convinced before I read the bio that Crowley was not a Satanist and I'm more convinced now. Although I truly understand WHY people think that. Crowley saw himself as The Beast and was fascinated with the number 666. He identified with Satan in some respects. But one has to look deeper. His interest in Satan had little to do with Satan and much to do with his issues with Christianity. Crowley didn't have problems with Jesus but a lot of complaints about the church. Crowley saw himself as anti-church.....not anti-Jesus. Crowley didn't worship Satan and I do not think had any interest in Satanism. To Crowley Satan was more of a personification of a dislike of Christianity than a god figure. People misunderstood Crowley's view point but I don't think Crowley cared. Crowley had a big beef with Christianity and in truly Crowley flamboyant style embraced a persona he felt reflected his own views.

From some speedy research I did this morning, I think part of the confusion comes from the fact that satanists pounced on Crowley as a sort of icon, because of his image and so on. He had nothing to do with this - but the association sticks to this day, like mud...

From the mouth of the Beast himself:

I was trying to take the view that the Christianity of hypocrisy and cruelty was not true Christianity. I did not hate God or Christ, but merely the God and Christ of the people whom I hated. It was only when the development of my logical faculties supplied the demonstration that I was compelled to set myself in opposition to the Bible itself. It does not matter that the literature is sometimes magnificent and that in isolated passages the philosophy and ethics are admirable. The sum of the matter is that Judaism is a savage, and Christianity a fiendish, superstition.

The Confessions of Aleister Crowley

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~ which is not, of course, the same as being a satanist ! I am not wild about Christianity, Judaism or the Bible either - but that doesn't make me anything in particular except someone who, etc.....

I don't see anything in that quote of Crowley's that might not have been said by Voltaire, Marx, Breton or any number of anti-clericalist thinkers of the past 300 years.

He didn't like Judaism, and he didn't like Christianity. Lots of other people don't and cannot by any stretch of the imagination be called satanists.

However there are episodes in his life that do make people think of him as, if not a satanist, then an evil fellow. I know at least one friend of mine, a Greek orthodox but hardly a fundie, who was genuinely horrified when he learnt I was reading Crowley. He is a troubling character, there is no doubt about it. I find his ideas exciting & presented in lively ways, but what I know of his life - unpleasant in parts. But then I read Céline, who was a Nazi, but wrote at least one amazing novel, and I don't feel corrupted by it at all.

But you are incorruptible, Helvetica. (Actually I mean that.... scary ?)

But wickedness is not the same as satanism - and satanists would not say they were wicked - indeed, I'm not sure that they are..... Now, I think practitioners of black magic ARE..... and I believe Crowley was such a practitioner....