Tarot of Ceremonial Magic Study Group - The Magus

Abrac

Yes, a halo, it seems so obvious. To me it looks like the halo is the result of the union of Babalon and the Beast.
 

Zephyros

Although Thelemic deity might be different from others in concepts, Crowley must have treated them as entities existing across abyss, which must be invoked or conjured up via proper rituals.

http://hermetic.com/osiris/cupofbabalon.htm

But there's a difference between the way one treats something, for example in magickal practice, and what something is, and I don't really understand the connection of the link you posted. Thelemic doctrine is closely linked to Qabalistic structure and the Tree of Life illustrates it well. Nuit is the All, including the Negative Veils which is what I mean when I said all that there is or isn't. Babalon is her earthly counterpart representing the unlimited possibilities of existence.

There's no need to go into making them into traditional deities because of the idea that all men are deities in themselves which changes everything.
 

foolMoon

But there's a difference between the way one treats something, for example in magickal practice, and what something is, and I don't really understand the connection of the link you posted. Thelemic doctrine is closely linked to Qabalistic structure and the Tree of Life illustrates it well. Nuit is the All, including the Negative Veils which is what I mean when I said all that there is or isn't. Babalon is her earthly counterpart representing the unlimited possibilities of existence.

There's no need to go into making them into traditional deities because of the idea that all men are deities in themselves which changes everything.

The link was about detailed procedure of the magical rituals for channeling Babalon. Although it is written in symbolic fashion, it clearly demonstrates Thelemic deities has to be invoked by the rituals. I mean, they are not simply available or contactable by everyone and general public.

Yes, I get your point of the Book of Law and the underlying principle that every man and every woman is a star implying the deities are present in all of us humanities. However, I still feel that the deities only emanates to those who are the initiates, not to everyone, tom dick and harry on the street.

So every man and woman is a star, if and only if, they are the initiates or at least aware of the Thelemic teachings?
 

Zephyros

The link was about detailed procedure of the magical rituals for channeling Babalon. Although it is written in symbolic fashion, it clearly demonstrates Thelemic deities has to be invoked by the rituals. I mean, they are not simply available or contactable by everyone and general public.

Yes, I get your point of the Book of Law and the underlying principle that every man and every woman is a star implying the deities are present in all of us humanities. However, I still feel that the deities only emanates to those who are the initiates, not to everyone, tom dick and harry on the street.

So every man and woman is a star, if and only if, they are the initiates or at least aware of the Thelemic teachings?

Well, strictly speaking, they're not beings that you can contact at all. One certainly doesn't pray to Nuit in order to have her grant wishes the way one prays to any other god. With Nuit being the all-ness and Hadit being "in the heart of every man" you're constantly interacting with them, in every experience and act and thought and breath. Their interaction is a fundamental rule of the universe, the subject and the object. Below the Abyss there is no separation between them but above is where you differentiate where one begins and the other ends. In simple terms, drinking from the cup of Babalon is experiencing life itself. What your link describes is that attainment of Adepthood is the process through which a person who has dedicated himself to the Great Work symbolically dies in the arms of Babalon and is reborn to his Will. The Cup is the world around you and infinite space.

The whole point here is not to impose old Aeon sensibilities of a pantheon of gods that sit in some cloudy heaven and grant indulgences according to their whims.

And no, every man and every woman is a star regardless of whether they are initiates or not, all are stars orbiting their own Will.

However, I still feel that the deities only emanates to those who are the initiates, not to everyone, tom dick and harry on the street.

Why?
 

foolMoon

Well, strictly speaking, they're not beings that you can contact at all. One certainly doesn't pray to Nuit in order to have her grant wishes the way one prays to any other god. With Nuit being the all-ness and Hadit being "in the heart of every man" you're constantly interacting with them, in every experience and act and thought and breath. Their interaction is a fundamental rule of the universe, the subject and the object. Below the Abyss there is no separation between them but above is where you differentiate where one begins and the other ends. In simple terms, drinking from the cup of Babalon is experiencing life itself. What your link describes is that attainment of Adepthood is the process through which a person who has dedicated himself to the Great Work symbolically dies in the arms of Babalon and is reborn to his Will. The Cup is the world around you and infinite space.

The whole point here is not to impose old Aeon sensibilities of a pantheon of gods that sit in some cloudy heaven and grant indulgences according to their whims.

And no, every man and every woman is a star regardless of whether they are initiates or not, all are stars orbiting their own Will.



Why?

No no, I didn't mean that Thelemic deities are someone who sit on the cloud in the sky, and check what people do, or intervene on mundane affairs.

They are existing across the abyss in Thelemic terms. The abyss could be, deep inside under your subconsciouness or spritual astral plane. This part we don't quite know. That is why you have to meditate to find them. If you are really keen, then you become an adept learning more about the teachings, and do the magical rituals to be closer to them?

To me, that is what Crowley meant, when he said every man and woman is a star. Stars are far away, unreachable to all of us. They flickers come and go. They appear as if they are there, but they are out of reach.

The existence of stars are meaningless, if we dont know and see them. It is like that the stars dont even exist to those who are oblivious to them. They only coming to being, and are closer to us, when we study them, and take out the telescope and try to see them.

Babalon may exist everywhere, or could be indeed the world as we know it, but it is meaningless to those who don't know what it is, or those who deny her. She only emanates to those who know, study and conjure up her?

That was my understanding of Babalon. But I must admit, I have not done through readings on Thelemic deities as such yet. Any good books on the topic?
 

smw

Great references and explanation. Although, the definition of Babalon seems still too abstract.

Eshelman gives an interesting perspective on the abstract nature of the two Thelemic Deities and how Babalon may be more accessible.

" Nuit is a mother Godess and Hadit a father God. However, they are more abstract than the personal familial ideas expressed by parent gods. In Thelema the more accessible parent archetypes are expressed by stepped down versions of Nuit and Hadit associated with Qabalistic ideas, called Binah( the Great Mother) and Chokmah)the great father). These lower "octave" expressions are respectively BABALON, a synthesis of all mythic ideas of the Divine Feminine (especially moon and yoni) and either CHAOS ( a celestial father) or BEAST( solar phallic)."

"She (Babalon) is a Thelemic Goddess resembling the Hindu Shakti, incorporating many themes of the planet Venus, attributed to the Sephira Binah.(as an expression of the Divine Feminine in general, and the Great Mother in particular)."
 

smw

Yes, a halo, it seems so obvious. To me it looks like the halo is the result of the union of Babalon and the Beast.

I saw a pic on the net of Baphomet, a figure also for Laveyan Satanistists -with what looked like a round seal or sigil with the goat head and I guess the union of their respective figures Samael and Lilith. The halo idea again maybe...
 

ravenest

They are same question, just put in different wordings.

Different wordings change the question and answer, even on a similar subject.

If you can clarify your question properly, you will get a more clarified answer.

Check Wiki's definition for anima mundi, as I have got it from there.

Oh, I see the problem ... you are going on an understanding of anima mundi from wiki

while I am going on one developed fro 40 years study and practice of hermetics .

Although Thelemic deity might be different from others in concepts,

They can be seen in many different ways - multiple reality views - Thelema is a pretty eclectic system. Consider how Nuit can be seen as the space - time continuum and hadit as an 'event- point' in the STC . Crowley says that himself. This is a very different conceptual way to comprehend deity ... AC offered multi eclectic views .

The ' Egypto-Thelemic' deities are a metaphorical construct that work on multiple levels.

Crowley must have treated them as entities existing across abyss, which must be invoked or conjured up via proper rituals.

Must he ? .... Must they ? "Proper ritual" ? what's that ?

I hope you dont mean copying what Crowley did to get the results he did ?
 

ravenest

Stop repeating yourself :)
Is it not the typical case of false premises lead into false and hollow conclusion?

That statement I made is false in the mundane world but not false in the realm of Nuit or Babalon. read it again then go read up on Nuit in the Book of the Law again .

That is .... if you have read it before ... read it again, if not, it might be a good idea to start reading it - that way a lot of your confusion will be dispelled .
 

ravenest

The link was about detailed procedure of the magical rituals for channeling Babalon. Although it is written in symbolic fashion, it clearly demonstrates Thelemic deities has to be invoked by the rituals. I mean, they are not simply available or contactable by everyone and general public.

Yes, I get your point of the Book of Law and the underlying principle that every man and every woman is a star implying the deities are present in all of us humanities. However, I still feel that the deities only emanates to those who are the initiates, not to everyone, tom dick and harry on the street.

So every man and woman is a star, if and only if, they are the initiates or at least aware of the Thelemic teachings?

WHOA!

Hold on there ! Everyman and every woman IS a star .... dont start disqualifying people ... heck , I myself am an initiate and I would never deny that birthright to people .

You are all stars folks ! Each with its own orbit and path - unique and individual .. and each of a color and beauty unique to itself.

You dont have to be a Thelemite or an initiate to be a 'star' ... although it may be reqiured to REALIZE that EVERYONE else is a star too .