Thoth Study Group - The Lovers

prudence

I still find this to be one of the more dificult to interpret cards in the deck, in any deck (especially the feminist ones). The only way I can interpret it is to see it as literal love, this works in some readings but in others, not so well. I would like to see a reading with the lovers in it, that shows what this card means in a more definite way. It is just a card that seems to have so many interpretations, and then I end up lost in all of the possibilites.

Parzival

Thoth Study Group -- The Lovers

Yes, many possibilities of meaning. Great for meditative range and depth, difficult for plain and simple divinatory direction. Mix of Art and Symbol supreme. Beautifully multi-meaningful. And yet: Tiphareth or Harmony. Six. Alchemical Marriage, as with Romeo and Juliet, Faust and Helen, Marius and Cosette...

Grigori

Thanks all for jumping in here.

Frank Hall said:
And yet: Tiphareth or Harmony. Six. Alchemical Marriage, as with Romeo and Juliet, Faust and Helen, Marius and Cosette...

I decided to re-write this question in the hopes I'll make more sense.

Looking at these couples I'm wondering Frank (and others) if you chose them because they speak to both union and seperation (and so the dual nature of the card)? Or are they famous literary characters because they deal with both union and seperation?

Trying to make more sense: Are they famous characters that embody the archetype of the Lovers, or are they famous characters because they embody the achetype of the Lovers?

Parzival

Thoth Study Group : The Lovers

similia said:
Thanks all for jumping in here.

Great question! -- These are well known literary lovers who "speak to both union and separation", to cite you, similia. And they experience the sweet harmony and lonely anxiety of a loving relationship. All three couples communicate their love and passion, yet bear the soul-pain of separation. In the end, only Marius and Cosette suffer through separation to final union. I think all three couples (there are others, obviously, possibly better examples) "embody the Archetype of the Lovers" in their heart-centered oneness, in their depth of communication, in their fervent romantic-erotic love. But Love is a most mysterious Archetype. Romeo describes Love as "bright smoke, cold fire, sick health, still-waking sleep, that is not what it is." Goethe describes Love as "seeming to flee,yet returning from his flight." Hugo describes Love as a "sombre and starry transfiguration mingled with torture."
The Thoth Image of Love is both "sombre and starry" too. Divination with this Image cannot be easy if it truly pictures Love and Lovers.

Grigori

Frank Hall said:
Great question! -- These are well known literary lovers who "speak to both union and separation", to cite you, similia. And they experience the sweet harmony and lonely anxiety of a loving relationship. All three couples communicate their love and passion, yet bear the soul-pain of separation. In the end, only Marius and Cosette suffer through separation to final union. I think all three couples (there are others, obviously, possibly better examples) "embody the Archetype of the Lovers" in their heart-centered oneness, in their depth of communication, in their fervent romantic-erotic love. But Love is a most mysterious Archetype. Romeo describes Love as "bright smoke, cold fire, sick health, still-waking sleep, that is not what it is." Goethe describes Love as "seeming to flee,yet returning from his flight." Hugo describes Love as a "sombre and starry transfiguration mingled with torture."
The Thoth Image of Love is both "sombre and starry" too. Divination with this Image cannot be easy if it truly pictures Love and Lovers.

Thanks SO much for your input and quotes Frank. I've gotten a lot from this thread (even though I'm still unsure how I'll use this image in divination

). The similarity to literary characters I'm familiar with was very useful. This really is a much more interesting card than I had previously seen it as.

SubtleMind

ahh the lovers car... very contemplative indeed... one thing i noticed is that this card is supposed to represent the joining of opposites, male and female, yin and yang, then why is the lion red (fire) and the eagle white (Air) when both elements are masculine?

also the lilith and eden is bothering me quite a bit..

Grigori

SubtleMind said:
this card is supposed to represent the joining of opposites, male and female, yin and yang, then why is the lion red (fire) and the eagle white (Air) when both elements are masculine?

I think the Red Lion and the White Eagle are alchemical opposites, rather than 4 element/astrological opposites. In the same way that the 3 elements of alchemy (Mercury, Sulphur and Salt) are different than the traditional 4 elements (air, fire, water, earth) they are a different system, so don't compare.

You see the red eagle with sun on the Emperor Card, and the white eagle with moon on the Empress, referring to the same opposites. In Art you see the same two animals with the colors exchanged, to symbolise the union the card represents.

SubtleMind said:
also the lilith and eden is bothering me quite a bit..

I think this may actually be my favorite feature of the card. It is still the momst confusing for divination of course, but I love the complexity it gives to the card. What is it that bother you SubtleMind?

SubtleMind

Its not that it bothers me in the sense that i don't like it but I just don't quite understand the meaning of it and everytime I draw the lovers card I am going to contemplate the meaning and not know what to make of it in my readings..

Grigori

SubtleMind said:
Its not that it bothers me in the sense that i don't like it but I just don't quite understand the meaning of it and everytime I draw the lovers card I am going to contemplate the meaning and not know what to make of it in my readings..

Crowley says its a nod to the Marseille style Lovers cards, depicting a choice between two things. One pure and good (often the mother or in this case Eve) the other a little bit naughty (the girlfriend, or in this card Lilith).

Of course it justs adds to the complexity of the card, and I also have no idea which direction I'd take in a reading either. Here's hoping the surrounding cards are clear heh...

SubtleMind

I was thinking of it as a choice but i wasnt sure, once again it seems like more contemplation because although eden and lilith may be a choice the hermit semms to be representing more of a set deal with no choice... also cupid is a representation of no choices bbecaus he chooses love and leaves no choices of who someone falls i nlove withbut the fact that he is blind folded may represent something else, not certain...

Thoth Study Group - The Lovers

prudence

Parzival

Grigori

Parzival

Grigori

SubtleMind

Grigori

SubtleMind

Grigori

SubtleMind