Thoth Study Group - The Lovers

Grigori

rachelcat said:
But one look at the Thoth Lovers, and you can tell it’s not about love--maybe potential for love. But it’s not about choice, either.

I think this card is about both Choice and Love, but maybe not in the usual sense. This might be very helpful, to think of what definition of Love is being used. Its about Love as the union of opposites, opposites being bought together in order to for a new thing to be created (the figure on the Art card perhaps).

But then there’s Eve and Lilith. Obviously not masculine and feminine. Some have suggested virgin and whore (good and evil?), but if we pay attention to the story, I’m thinking more obedient and rebellious. Or even other-motivated and self-motivated.

Or perhaps the Choice, as in the Marseille style Lovers. The light and the dark female archetypes, as there is the fair and the dark woman in the Marseille Lovers.

Cupid is obviously the Love part of the Lovers card. The book says his quiver has Thelema inscribed on it. (I’ll have to take it’s word for it!) That is kind of contradictory. The whole point of Cupid’s arrows (pun intended!) is that they are irresistible, even to the gods. So what does that have to do with Will? More opposites, probably intended . . .

And in gematria, Agape (meaning love of a spiritual kind) is 93, as is Thelema meaning will. So Will is the same as Love. That was a bit of a lightbulb for me, now I finall understand why thelemites go around saying 93/93. Love under Will.

Does that mean the king and queen are Chokmah and Binah? But, if so, they are reversed . . .

Or maybe seen from behind. Or maybe the Binah/Black Queen has given her cup to the Chokmah/White King, who has also given his lance to his Queen. Like the exchanging of rings at a wedding.

Then that night we had a fight. I think the card is saying now you know where you are at odds/what separates you (like the swords). Knowing the problem is the beginning of creating a new life/relationship together. Like I said in the beginning, not Love, romantic or otherwise, but the potential for love.

I also ways struggled with this idea, the card about union being attributed to the sword which is about division. The idea of 0=2 made me happy though. From the BoL "I am divided for Love's sake", the division is so that union/Love is possible. Apart, together, apart, together etc... Perhaps the card of make-up-sex :laugh:

ravenest

similia said:
Its about Love as the union of opposites, opposites being bought together in order to for a new thing to be created (the figure on the Art card perhaps).

Hmmm ...I always saw 2 cups as this and Lovers (VI) as what we do to that energy (contract it, project it into the future, create problems and attachments and expectations with it and yes, even perhaps make-up sex ). Its a bond and a contract between people ... arranged as in marriage or 'naturally' as in brothers. One is the 'naked energy' and the other the 'robes' we adorn it with.

But the above has added a different dimension. Perhaps 2 cups is more about the raw force ... the attraction and the merging. The Lovers looks at the implication or the "new thing to be created"?

Grigori

ravenest said:
Hmmm ...I always saw 2 cups as this and Lovers (VI) as what we do to that energy (contract it, project it into the future, create problems and attachments and expectations with it and yes, even perhaps make-up sex ). Its a bond and a contract between people ... arranged as in marriage or 'naturally' as in brothers. One is the 'naked energy' and the other the 'robes' we adorn it with.

But the above has added a different dimension. Perhaps 2 cups is more about the raw force ... the attraction and the merging. The Lovers looks at the implication or the "new thing to be created"?

Well bouncing off your earlier post elsewhere, I guess a lot depends on what level of interpretation we're looking at.

If comparing the 2 of Cups and the Lovers I'd change my stance a little. In that case I see the Lovers the big cosmic version, Agape/Will etc.. The 2 of Cups as its human manifestation, the same idea but confined to relationship and all that contains. So I guess you and I see them in opposite ways a bit.

I see the Lovers as the thing that is projected into the 2 of Cups more limited sphere. So I wouldn't tend to see of the 2 of Cups as make-up-sex out of context of a specific spread or question about that, as the 2 doesn't have the idea of division so clearly as the Lovers does, the argument or fight. The 2 seems more purely about the union side of things to me. Though I know that is contradicoty of me to say, cause I see the make-up-sex more in the Lovers, though the human relationship that make-up-sex implies I see less so.

ravenest

similia said:
If comparing the 2 of Cups and the Lovers I'd change my stance a little. In that case I see the Lovers the big cosmic version, Agape/Will etc.. The 2 of Cups as its human manifestation, the same idea but confined to relationship and all that contains. So I guess you and I see them in opposite ways a bit.

Yeah. I see the 2 c as the primal natural force that drives creation ... I guess the 'big cosmic version', the intrincis + or - in the situation (I think I got that from BoT) and the Lovers as the smaller picture ... what WE do with the 2 c energy. But I know that seems the wrong way around considiering supposed influences and realms of 'minor' and 'major' cards.

nicky

rachelcat,

wow a ton of insight.. I am cards away from the Lovers but have bookmarked this thread so I can sneak a peek when I get there...

thothing on,
Nicky

rachelcat

ravenest said:
Yeah. I see the 2 c as the primal natural force that drives creation ... I guess the 'big cosmic version', the intrincis + or - in the situation (I think I got that from BoT) and the Lovers as the smaller picture ... what WE do with the 2 c energy. But I know that seems the wrong way around considiering supposed influences and realms of 'minor' and 'major' cards.

When I was noodling what force + emotions might mean, I came up with "attraction and repulsion," just like your positive and negative. At least we're on the same page!

I had another thought. Since Eve and Lilith are on the same level as Cupid, I thought maybe Eve = Love and Lilith = Will(fulness).

Make-up sex! That is so perfect. And just so you know, I'm never going to forget that as a meaning in a reading!

A few small things I picked up from books I checked after I posted:

Banzhaf says the mobius/scroll is the "plan of creation," which fits with the Word through which everything was made. The Word is like a blueprint. Or the vocal words that God spoke to create the universe. And it was good!

Progression of the Orphic Egg. We first see it in small winged form on Magus, barely formed, even as just an idea.

Husband says no to H2 being acid and O2 being base (in a literal, chemical sense). We'll just have to live with the metaphorical sense!

I think I need to add an "in a reading" section, so--

In a Reading: Potential for love, including potential for agape/world-love/compassion. "Love your neighbor as yourself" and, yes, "Love is the law." Opposites attract. (And now I get all psychobabbly, thanks in part to Banzhaf.) Loving yourself. Recognizing and integrating the opposite sex within you (anima/animus). And shadow, too. The person that you just can't stand is probably the one most like you!

Thanks all for your comments and help!

Grigori

rachelcat said:
I had another thought. Since Eve and Lilith are on the same level as Cupid, I thought maybe Eve = Love and Lilith = Will(fulness).

Maybe we could related that to the Dove and the Serpent on the Tower card also. Crowley takes them from the BoL where it says there are two kinds of Love, the Serpent and the Dove. I don't know the extent of what this is reference to, though have theories about how it fits on the Tree of Life. However maybe Eve is the Venus/Empress/Dove kind of love, and Lilith is the serpent/Lust version.

Husband says no to H2 being acid and O2 being base (in a literal, chemical sense). We'll just have to live with the metaphorical sense!

I think maybe Crowley was not meaning that H2 and O2 are acids and alkali, but rather he was listing potential opposites (like the King and Queen) but in the sphere of Chemistry. Acids and Bases are one example, Metals and Non-Metals another, and Hydrogen and Oxygen a third. There are other similar examples in the article linked to in that other thread. Maybe it better to think of Hydrogen being on the left hand side of the periodic table and so having an excess electron to give away (positively charged) and oxygen being on the right hand side so wanting an extra electron (negatively charged). The two opposites are drawn together by Love (in the cosmic sense of union of opposites, king and queen) and a new thing is created (water maybe, H2O).

The same would happen with acids and alkalis. Mix them together and a new third thing is formed, and the original opposites no longer exist. (Actually I think two new things are formed when you mix acids and bases, water and a salt if my chemistry class is remembered correctly, which is likely isn't :laugh:

I failed chemisty quite dismally...

)

Aeon418

rachelcat said:
I never understood the story of Cain and Abel. Why was Cain’s offering not as good as Abel’s in God’s sight? Why did God mark Cain so that he WOULDN’T be murdered in turn? What is the story about???

Since nobody else has, I'll take a crack at this.

The exoteric interpretation of the story of Cain and Abel is murder. More specifically the first murder. An esoteric interpretation is that Cain and Abel represent the divided self.

Abel (Heb: HBL) means breath. Latin: Spiritus.

Cain (Heb: QIN) means something which is created.

Abel can be considered the True Self. While Cain is the created self, the Ego.

Why was Abel's offering accepted and Cain's rejected? Cain (the Ego) can't communicate directly with the divine. All his offerings are "of the earth".
Abel (Spiritus) can cummunicate with the divine because he offers blood which is Life.

Lamb (Heb: TLH = 44)

Blood (Heb DM = 44)

"The shedding of blood is necessary, for God did not hear the children of Eve until blood was shed."

Adam - Humanity (Heb: ADM). Shed the blood (DM) and you are left with Aleph, the letter of breath - Spiritus.

In the story, after Cain murders Abel, God finds out (like he didn't already know

) and curses Cain. Places a Mark (AVTh) on Cain's head and sends him away from his sight. It's basically a re-telling of the legend of the Fall. But just like the Fall it's not meant to be a moral tale. It's meant to illustrate how the conscious mind became separated from Super-consciousness. It's a necessary evil that makes existence possible. But it's in no sense a moral judgement.

God places the Mark on Cain's head so that he may never be killed. After that Cain moves to the east of Eden and settles in the land of Nod, which in Hebrew means "wandering". This is a metaphor for the way in which the lower self wanders throughout the cycle of incarnation. Never being killed, but always being re-cast in new forms again and again and again. Until the way back to Eden is found.
(Land of Nod could also be taken as a English pun. The Land of Sleep.)

The Mark of Cain is the key. AVTh. Rather than being the brand of a sinner, it is the mark of initiation. It shows the way back from Malkuth (Tau) to Kether (Aleph) via the Sun (Vau). It is the Mark of the Beast.

Grigori

Aeon418 said:
Since nobody else has, I'll take a crack at this.

Can't imagine why I didn't think of that answer

Aeon said:
The Mark of Cain is the key. AVTh. Rather than being the brand of a sinner, it is the mark of initiation. It shows the way back from Malkuth (Tau) to Kether (Aleph) via the Sun (Vau). It is the Mark of the Beast.

I didn't follow the connection between the Mark and the Beast. Could you explain that a little more please?

Aeon418

similia said:
I didn't follow the connection between the Mark and the Beast. Could you explain that a little more please?

The Mark is AVTh. The link between Aleph and Tau (or Alpha and Omega) is Vau the Sun, the Beast 666, who is God, Man, and Animal in one.

The Mark of the Beast is a cross within a circle. (Don't confuse it with the Sigil of To Mega Therion.) It is the circle squared. The Ordeal X, that unites the above and below through the HGA. The re-uninon of Cain (X - Tau) and Abel (O the Fool - Aleph).

Does that help?

Thoth Study Group - The Lovers

Grigori

ravenest

Grigori

ravenest

nicky

rachelcat

Grigori

Aeon418

Grigori

Aeon418