WhyWhyWhyWhy Spread - input from lots of you, please!

MandMaud

I've only done one trial of this spread, so far. It feels like something that should work very well but maybe the way I'm doing it isn't bringing out the results - so let's collaborate on the actual method.

I didn't get much from on my first try - but then, I never can understand the cards when reading for myself, so can't draw any conclusions from not understanding them here.

My inspiration is a problem-solving technique which asks "Why?" half a dozen times to reach the REAL reason behind something. If you know of this, please post the author or some reference, as I can only remember the workshop where I learnt it and not its original source.
ETA: I found it; it's called the Five Whys Method and is linked to in post #6.

For example, in that workshop we were all studying to be breastfeeding counsellors. The starting question was "Why do I want to be a breastfeeding counsellor?" Each person answers that, for example: "To help mothers." Next, you ask "Why do I want to help mothers?" and so on with each response you find within yourself. (On that day, we all ended up with the final reason: "To change the world!"

)

My attempt at turning this into a tarot spread goes like this. Six cards in a row:

1 ` 2 ` 3 ` 4 ` 5 ` 6

1 - the question, puzzle, problem or block - the situation, the "issue" ... this card can be drawn like the others, or chosen beforehand as a kind of significator for the situation (for example, if you feel strongly drawn towards becoming a performer, maybe choose the Knight of Wands or something like that for this position; or it could be a card from another reading which you want to clarify)
2 - Why card 1?
3 - Why card 2?
4 - Why card 3?
5 - Why card 4?
6 - Why card 5 / Overall, why? ... this will be the solution to the problem or question; the meaning of the subject.

Come on, everyone, improve this with me.

Etene

Rodney's comment in the thread where you attempted to apply this inspires me to give my opinion.

rwcarter said:
If I'm understanding your spread correctly ... To say that Card 1 is explained by Card 6 is to shortcut the whole process.

I agree with the spirit of his observation, but I think that my reasoning is different.

This is a one-card draw with five clarifiers.

Consider carefully that the practice of Tarot assumes that the card you get answers the question, and any lack of clarity (be it clarified by other cards or other methods or not) is ultimately a failing of the reader to perceive the card's message. Your Readings is an excerise of polling for alternative perspectives when the cards' message is unclear.

Imagine: You ask, "Why do I want to be a breastfeeding counsellor?" and get 10-Wheel. You turn another to clarify it and get 21-World. Clarify again, Queen of Hearts. Again, Three Coins. Again, Page of Coins. Again, Three Wands. This would be your spread except phrased as a BecauseBecauseBecauseBecause.

Although whatever magic may underlie spreads as a whole should work just as well for WhyWhyWhyWhy as it does for any other card order intent, I don't see this giving any greater insight in and of itself as does the practice of turning clarifiers when desired or simply turning six cards on one question, while introducing a lot of complexity by adding a task of figuring out how each of the six cards form a chain of causes.

I think the great flaw that witholds "the results" is that it is drawing clarification where clarification may not be needed, which quickly proves to be an exercise in diminishing returns. Especially since, if the sixth clarifier would be the one to deliver the message, it should've appeared first.

All is not lost: This design could serve best as a meditative task, by asking the user to try to find a way to connect the six cards in a way that could explain the reasons-why of a matter, whether or not it gives a meaningful or useful result it will induce thoughtfulness.

Ace

Asking WHY is (IMHO) always a bit iffy. There sometimes is no real WHY, it just is. Or maybe it just is arbitrary. A better question, to me, is always What to do about it? Why just lets you wallow in the problem, so again, it just doesn't see the best question to ask.

So the only why question really is the one you used to illustrate the point: why do you want a Goal? But to me, WHAT is the real goal? is a better question than looking for reasons WHY you are choosing an action.

Barb

Saskia

I don't think this is about clarifiers or has anything iffy in it.

I think it's a great meditative tool to get to the bottom of the issue, or reveal angles that would easily be overlooked otherwise. This is common risk management technique and an example used in risk management workshops goes something like this:

I missed my job interview. Why?
My car ran out of petrol. Why?
Because I was in a hurry to get home watch my favourite series. Why?
Because I'm quite addicted to it. Why?
Because I don't have enough social contact in my real life. Why? etc. etc.

This example attempts to bring up that the continuing why's can reveal something deep and worth of addressing even if it seemingly doesn't relate to the question at hand and wouldn't have come up otherwise.

So it's about meditating all the angles relating to the issue, not only about trying to solve a problem with one card and clarifiers.

Amanda

It makes sense to me MandMaud. I haven't heard of the particular method/exercise you are thinking of, but I've been doing a lot of the "So what?" and "Why?" with my research lately to get down to the barest bones of analysis. The way that I would be most inclined to read this spread is very methodically- literally one card at a time, not too connected to the cards before or after. I would read each card as literal as possible, like:

Situation: 10 of Swords -- You're ruined!
Why?: 6 of Wands -- Because you decided to show off!
Why?: 3 of Cups -- Because others enjoy it!
etc.
etc.

MandMaud

I've found the method! It is official! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_Whys
I hope the article will make my intention clearer than I managed to.

I didn't realise it was originally meant for engineering questions. In fact I think it's better for Life, the Universe and Everything questions (and I agree that "On-the-spot verification of the answer to the current "why" question before proceeding to the next is recommended to avoid these issues"). I don't think that, in life, it needs to be limited to five whys but that keeps it a handy size and will get to the root most of the time.

For examining our own motivations, priorities, and values, this can be a very valuable method, and that's how I intended this spread. Yes, in my other thread I was trying to use it for clarifying a card... I'll come to that next.

MandMaud

Etene said:
Rodney's comment in the thread where you attempted to apply this inspires me to give my opinion.I agree with the spirit of his observation, but I think that my reasoning is different.

This is a one-card draw with five clarifiers.

You've made me realise that I didn't explain how to choose the "this" card. I'll edit the first post in a minute and add that bit. Yes, in YR I was using this spread to clarify a card from another reading, but equally the "this" of card 1 could be other things.

Etene said:
Consider carefully that the practice of Tarot assumes that the card you get answers the question, and any lack of clarity (be it clarified by other cards or other methods or not) is ultimately a failing of the reader to perceive the card's message. Your Readings is an excerise of polling for alternative perspectives when the cards' message is unclear.

I agree with all of this, and I never use clarifiers! But I was so stumped by this Ten of Swords - not even sure whether I should be wondering why I have to go through the 10S stage (in the situation in question), or wondering why the card showed up at all. So I attempted to clarify it. Maybe that was a mistake to start with and the spread is doomed to fail.

Etene said:
Imagine: You ask, "Why do I want to be a breastfeeding counsellor?" and get 10-Wheel. You turn another to clarify it and get 21-World. Clarify again, Queen of Hearts. Again, Three Coins. Again, Page of Coins. Again, Three Wands. This would be your spread except phrased as a BecauseBecauseBecauseBecause.

Actually I don't see the difference, except that "WhyWhy" etc is easier to pronounce.

Asking, "Why the Queen of Hearts?" and being told, "Because the 3 of Coins" could be referred to as Why the Q of Hearts? or as Because the 3 of Coins but effectively they're the same, aren't they?

Etene said:
Although whatever magic may underlie spreads as a whole should work just as well for WhyWhyWhyWhy as it does for any other card order intent, I don't see this giving any greater insight in and of itself as does the practice of turning clarifiers when desired or simply turning six cards on one question, while introducing a lot of complexity by adding a task of figuring out how each of the six cards form a chain of causes.

Well, the point was this Five Whys method. I began by settling down and trying to examine the situation, the project, my hopes etc, using that method - and then thought of bringing the cards in to help.

Etene said:
I think the great flaw that witholds "the results" is that it is drawing clarification where clarification may not be needed, which quickly proves to be an exercise in diminishing returns. Especially since, if the sixth clarifier would be the one to deliver the message, it should've appeared first.

I see why you'd say that about card 6, but knowing it's based on this method, we see how the final card is a cumulative "overall" Why arising from the chain. When we just take each as an explanation of the previous card, that doesn't happen.

Etene said:
All is not lost: This design could serve best as a meditative task, by asking the user to try to find a way to connect the six cards in a way that could explain the reasons-why of a matter, whether or not it gives a meaningful or useful result it will induce thoughtfulness.

Back to post #1, with my addition about card 1. And yes, this spread is BEST for self-examination and discovering one's deep reasons for actions and feelings. At least I think so, so far, as I get to know the spread better.

(That other thread, for reference: http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=4593900)

MandMaud

Ace said:
Asking WHY is (IMHO) always a bit iffy. There sometimes is no real WHY, it just is. Or maybe it just is arbitrary. A better question, to me, is always What to do about it? Why just lets you wallow in the problem, so again, it just doesn't see the best question to ask.

So the only why question really is the one you used to illustrate the point: why do you want a Goal? But to me, WHAT is the real goal? is a better question than looking for reasons WHY you are choosing an action.

Barb

You've lost me, I'm afraid. Did I mention a Goal? Maybe the example was confusing - it could just as well have been "Why is X being snarky towards me?" or "Why am I getting headaches recently?" or "Why is my self-confidence low this year?"

The big why can be:

why must I experience this?

did I cause it?

what/who is its cause?

has it a purpose?

how do I gain from it?

how do I lose by it?

what do I need to learn from it?

or plenty of other angles!

Hopefully which kind of Why is it will become clear from the cards - or one specific Why could be decided on before doing the reading.

MandMaud

Saskia said:
I don't think this is about clarifiers or has anything iffy in it.

I think it's a great meditative tool to get to the bottom of the issue, or reveal angles that would easily be overlooked otherwise. This is common risk management technique and an example used in risk management workshops goes something like this:

I missed my job interview. Why?
My car ran out of petrol. Why?
Because I was in a hurry to get home watch my favourite series. Why?
Because I'm quite addicted to it. Why?
Because I don't have enough social contact in my real life. Why? etc. etc.

This example attempts to bring up that the continuing why's can reveal something deep and worth of addressing even if it seemingly doesn't relate to the question at hand and wouldn't have come up otherwise.

So it's about meditating all the angles relating to the issue, not only about trying to solve a problem with one card and clarifiers.

That's exactly the method I was shown, in that workshop years ago, and was trying to remember more clearly. Sounds like you've come across it before.

The clarifiers thing is a red herring, because I tried this out to clarify a card... which was a mistake, I now think.

MandMaud

Amanda said:
It makes sense to me MandMaud. I haven't heard of the particular method/exercise you are thinking of, but I've been doing a lot of the "So what?" and "Why?" with my research lately to get down to the barest bones of analysis. The way that I would be most inclined to read this spread is very methodically- literally one card at a time, not too connected to the cards before or after. I would read each card as literal as possible, like:

Situation: 10 of Swords -- You're ruined!
Why?: 6 of Wands -- Because you decided to show off!
Why?: 3 of Cups -- Because others enjoy it!
etc.
etc.

This sounds very Lenormand-ish! Maybe that is the best way of using this spread (if it's usable at all, which I'm seriously doubting now). I'll go back to my try-out reading to see if it works better this way.

The method I link to in post #6 may be interesting to you.