I read RWS, should I ignore Thoth meanings

Barleywine

I agree pretty much with what you are saying. What I would mention though is that to buy the Book of Thoth eagerly as a newcomer, it could be disheartening to find that it appears pretty impenetrable and not particularly accessible. When I bought it, I immediately rushed out and bought Duquette's.

What it seems (from my new eyes) to be is a 'framework' for everything brilliantly in one place but not an explanation handed to you on a plate. The symbols and myths likewise are discussed and considered but again to be explored and studied for yourself.

I find that little nuggets start making a bit more sense, reading it with other works such as liber777, liber t, Vision and the Voice etc. I think in all honesty without more surrounding knowledge you could read or contemplate the BOT until your eyes crossed and you turned blue. That could just be me though :laugh:

In another thread a while ago, we pretty much agreed that it hints provocatively at far more than it explains, and some of it is so arcane at first blush as to be completely confounding (and frankly remains so after repeated readings without resorting to - and spending a good deal of time with - other source material). The "whole of his Magical Mind" was indeed a huge place, and the "map" he left us reminds me of those incomplete world maps once used by mariners, with their frequent mention of "Here be dragons."
 

smw

In another thread a while ago, the "map" he left us reminds me of those incomplete world maps once used by mariners, with their frequent mention of "Here be dragons."

I'm sure there are dragons lurking in his map. Perhaps they pop up now and then with a glimpse of their scales. And I'm sure fairies, gods, spirit guides and all sorts are flitting around in there too :)
 

Zephyros

The same could be said of the RWS, by the way. Over in the RWS forum Abrac has demonstrated multiple times that the information is there in Waite's writings, except that he didn't leave a map.
 

Abrac

I agree the BoT isn't a magic bullet for understanding the Thoth. It might reveal a lot to the initiated but to a beginner it might as well be in a foreign language.

As far the PKT, it was never intended to be a deep study. This is how Waite sums up his objectives:

"As regards the verbal meanings allocated here to the more important Trump Cards, they are designed to set aside the follies and impostures of past attributions, to put those who have the gift of insight on the right track, and to take care, within the limits of my possibilities, that they are the truth so far as they go."​
 

Richard

......As far the PKT, it was never intended to be a deep study.....

Part II Section 2 of PKT is quite deep but somewhat sketchy, so most people skip that part.
 

Zephyros

I agree the BoT isn't a magic bullet for understanding the Thoth. It might reveal a lot to the initiated but to a beginner it might as well be in a foreign language.

I disagree somewhat. While it can't be denied that it is a very difficult book I don't think it is aimed at initiates. In his own way, Crowley meant for it to be read by the general public. The number of times of says "this can only be understood by initiates of this and this level" is actually quite rare. Not that the two books can be compared, but Waite says something to this effect many more times, relatively speaking, and about things that aren't necessarily intiatory in nature.

In small bites and in a through fashion of actual study, the Book of Thoth is manageable, especially in this day and age when any obscure reference can be looked up in seconds. Large parts of it, at least.

Part II Section 2 of PKT is quite deep but somewhat sketchy, so most people skip that part.

I suspect that the problem people have with that section is not its depth, but that it reads like a map with no names. If you know basic GD doctrine, a smattering of Qabalah and astrology you can get what he's driving at, in many cases, but he talks about things without specifically mentioning them.
 

smw

In small bites and in a through fashion of actual study, the Book of Thoth is manageable, especially in this day and age when any obscure reference can be looked up in seconds. Large parts of it, at least.

There is an awful lot of obscure material though - not to mention having to trawl through any references that might also be lengthy. Refer to The Book of Law? IMO it is as cryptic as the Book of Thoth... Liber777, pretty clear, but there are pages of it. What are those enochian looking descriptions of the courts? Hmmm... Another world of Enochian Magic to get a grasp on, not forgetting within that the Vision and the Voice also giving info and further insights on the Cards.

Even Thelemic statements like " do what thy wilt should be the whole of the Law or love is the law love under will! Have a lot to them. What is your will? Do you know what your will actually is to be able to do it? Complex, yes, and what does it mean 'at all' if you have not explored Thelema, the philosophy at the heart of the Thoth and Crowley? Incidentally why are some people including yourself on this forum using the 93 or 93/93 Thelemite greetings if you are not Thelemites? Is this another obscure mystery?

There also appears to be woven in material regarding the initiatory degrees of levels in GD/Crowley's orders. These are in the cards, as far as I am aware.

I don't want to put people off- the opposite, your not stupid or not smart enough if you don't understand it.
 

Zephyros

There is an awful lot of obscure material though - not to mention having to trawl through any references that might also be lengthy. Refer to The Book of Law? IMO it is as cryptic as the Book of Thoth... Liber777, pretty clear, but there are pages of it.Even basic statements like " do what thy wilt should be the whole of the Law or love is the law love under will! Have a lot to them. What is your will? Do you know what you will actually is to be able to do it? Complex, yes, and what does it mean 'at all' if you have not explored Thelema, the philosophy at the heart of the Thoth and Crowley?

I didn't say that no background was necessary, but these topics can be explored, to a certain degree, without belonging to an initiatory order or even practicing magick. It would help, of course, but depending on the stage you are in your studies it isn't strictly necessary. But studying the book is an exercise in patience, because although everything is explained somewhere, it does indeed entail a great deal of trawling. The subject of Will is explained in a short and concise way in Duty, and there are many other sources, both primary and secondary, that discuss it. The Book of Law has two separate commentaries by Crowley, any number of secondary commentaries as well as a completed study group here in the forum. Enochian, too, has never been more accessible.

All these things can be studied, which is why it is important to go slowly. DuQuette gives a preliminary background on all of it, including topics such as Will and rudimentary explanations of things like DWTW, and then someone can go on to the Book of Thoth with a basic understanding of the ideas of the deck and some basic Qabalah. Those things get you started, but even that isn't enough, and through reading and studying the book it is possible to gain some understanding of the deck but only over time and old-fashioned study. It has nothing to do with intelligence, but often when people say the book is impenetrable it is because they just read it, and didn't actually study it. When I was studying the deck intensively I spend between three and six months on every Major, not letting go until I got it, relatively speaking. Granted, I work in a job in which I have a lot of free time on my hands so I was able to spend four hours a day on it until my brain turned to mush, but really if I can do it anyone can. If you read the book and come across something you don't understand, Google it, and don't move on until the point is cleared up.

This is assuming one has the basics of Qabalah and rudimentary astrology which are the symbolic languages through which Crowley expresses himself. Those things can also be learned and the'yre not that difficult in themselves. You can know basic Qabalah in a month, enough to get you started.

Incidentally why are some people including yourself on this forum using the 93 or 93/93 Thelemite greetings when they are not Thelemites? Is this another obscure mystery?

In Greek Gematria 93 is the value of both Thelema (Will) as well as Agapé (Love). The greeting is from the Book of Law, and one of the basic tenets of Thelema, "Love is the law, love under will." It basically encourages whoever you say it to, to practice their Will freely. I'm not a Thelemite, strictly speaking, and used it only in the forum guidelines, because it's cool. :)

There also appears to be woven in material regarding the initiatory degrees of levels in GD/Crowley's orders. These are in the cards, as far as I am aware.

Yes, admittedly there are references to things a layman may not be privvy to. Those things, if you don't belong to an order or practice magick in some way, you won't get. The general structure and initiatory steps are also in books, and can be found. Some things he does say that nobody who isn't at whatever level will understand, but they're relatively few in number and are more or less aimed for the advanced student. That's fine, most of the book is for what Crowley considered a beginner, which isn't really someone who approaches the book with no background whatsoever.

In fact I would argue that the Book of Thoth has never been easier than it is today. "Trawling" today means looking up stuff, although it might be a relatively slow and diligent process. In Crowley's day it meant spending years shut up in libraries digging up books that weren't available in any case. How would someone living anywhere except a big city like London ever find the Book of Abramelin or any other of the obscure books Crowley references? It would have been beyond impossible. Today I may not understand it, but it is still only a few clicks away.
 

Zephyros

It is not my argument for how accessible the BOT is compared to the past. That is your own.

Though I will say that I was given a small hardback of the Book of The Law which was totally incomprehensible. To my regret I gave it way to what I thought was a good home- ie someone who was into Crowley. Unfortunately, he was just a poseur.

Actually, I don't think it is 'cool' to appear as a Thelemite when you are not. It looks bogus.

Well, I guess I misunderstood your questions then, I apologize. And in a forum dedicated to the Thoth and where Thelemites do frequent, it would make sense to have it there. In the Golden Dawn guidelines I quoted a GD motto. There is no posing.