Is it OK to use the Thoth deck w RW interpretations?

Teheuti

It was only when I started approaching the Thoth as its own thing, then I started to get somewhere. 10 years later I find a lot of similarity between them and really enjoy studying their common Golden Dawn roots. On occasions even I'll pull a Thoth card from my deck and think of the RWS equivalent and based on that intuition read the RWS card instead. But for starting out, I'd suggest trying to approach them as separate entities is better for your understanding of what makes Thoth, Thoth.
Excellent advice and my experience, too. I've done a lot of comparing of the RWS, Thoth and Marseille decks, seeing where they come together and where they depart or how each adds something different to my understanding.
 

smw

Uhm, I wouldn't know, I've never seen Crowley's Ten of Cups as a card of excess, at least in terms of intensity. It is excessive, in my view, not because it is too much, like the Seven, but because even though it is sated (is that even a word?) it is sated in a lowly, somewhat petty way. I mean, like the Seven it has mistaken pleasure as something for its own sake that is only found outside, like the Eight it is kept going by not being satisfied by what it has, and like the Nine it is sort of filled by it anyway, meaning that it does not look for something higher. Also, it is all this on a lower level (Malkuth) which doesn't have the strength of the other Sephiroth, so there is like a vicious circle in it: you are so unfulfilled that you feel fulfilled by random, low pleasures that, as soon as you obtain them, you find unsatisfactory. You could say that it is Love without Will in its worst aspect, and without any mitigating influence (the seven, at least, partakes of Tiphareth).
As for Mars, I see it more as the cause of the transience of the card: all the tens are instable, and to me Mars is the force that guides the transition from Water to Air by destroying the little power that Pisces still has, almost vaporizing it into Air.

At least, this is my take on that card.

I'd like to say with a clearer head things are clearer... ahem... I have been looking at the other cups ..perhaps excess of too much is more like the seven, I might have been thinking of the 10 of cups "have runneth over and are staining the carpet" as connected to Mars, but maybe more to do with waste and (un)fulfillment as you mention.

Well yes, every card is necessary to get to the completion of manifestation and to start a new cycle again. If you look at the Thoth as a string of cards that goes from the Fool to the Ten of Disks it is quite easy to see the various passages.

I hope so ;) I did notice though that this completion of the circle by awakening the Eld of the All -Father is compared by Crowley to the Adjustment card.

Regards

smw
 

smw

I have been inspired by this thread to take out (again!) my copy of Lon Milo Duquette's book on the Thoth, and have another bash at sufficiently understanding what Crowley wanted to say to be able to read Thoth with at least some grasp of what was intended.I find it difficult, partly because they are not my beliefs,


I am finding the beliefs thing a bit tricky as well. I tend to have a viewpoint that philosophies, religions gods etc come in an acceptable form for your own beliefs. Having said that having been brought up with a Christian influence at home (and culturally) these images are still powerful. Fortunately though this was not about religious adherence, more about personal faith and god in all things.

hence I'm back with Lon again :)

he does write with chocolaty charm :)
 

Zephyros

It actually isn't a matter of belief, but a certain set of symbols pertaining to a certain set of ideas. Everything is a form of mythology, and although Crowley's ideas are both expressed differently and say different things, understanding it is no different from understanding any other symbolic world. Everybody knows Greek mythology, but nobody says you have to worship Zeus in order to read a horoscope. Everybody uses the RWS, but very few people realize how much Christian symbolism is in it, much less claim that you have to be a Christian to use it.

The Thoth will not make a Thelemite out of you on its own, but in order to get anything out of it you have to let it teach you, not holding anything back. Just as you would assume a Greek deck has Zeus as its supreme figure (assumption, not belief) using the Thoth one must assume its world of symbols. However, it need not conform to your own beliefs. If you go in to the Thoth expecting to find yourself looking back at you, or expect to emerge unchanged, that... may not actually be a worthy use of your time.
 

smw

It actually isn't a matter of belief, but a certain set of symbols pertaining to a certain set of ideas. Everything is a form of mythology, and although Crowley's ideas are both expressed differently and say different things, understanding it is no different from understanding any other symbolic world. Everybody knows Greek mythology, but nobody says you have to worship Zeus in order to read a horoscope. Everybody uses the RWS, but very few people realize how much Christian symbolism is in it, much less claim that you have to be a Christian to use it.

Thanks for the contribution :) I see what you are saying about not needing to have beliefs to use symbols and ideas. I think though it may not be as straightforward (for me) to separate this type of functioning from beliefs that may be out of awareness. So in one way it is helpful to notice underlying beliefs that appear to be challenged and how. Also that the emotional content of these or any beliefs are powerful.

The Thoth will not make a Thelemite out of you on its own,

~laugh~ sorry, I had an image of the pack getting up....

but in order to get anything out of it you have to let it teach you, not holding anything back. Just as you would assume a Greek deck has Zeus as its supreme figure (assumption, not belief) using the Thoth one must assume its world of symbols. However, it need not conform to your own beliefs. If you go in to the Thoth expecting to find yourself looking back at you, or expect to emerge unchanged, that... may not actually be a worthy use of your time.

yes, agreed, there is not much point in any exploration if you are stuck just going around a familiar groove. And for expecting to find yourself looking back at you..yikes, narcissistic, no connection outside your own views...that's a thought.

Regards

smw
 

Eremita90

Hi smw, I PMed you :) I didn't want to go off topic
 

ravenest

Belief is a strong force. Belief in, or even association with or awareness of mythic symbolism, theme, story, Gods, etc. is a primal force deep within the psyche. Its been there for quiet some time, collectively.

It can be used by the magician (as opposed to 'it using you' in religion) . The thing is; the more potent it is the more chance it has of taking over ... especially in a narrow field (ie. outlook, experience, education, etc ).

Its tricky, as if one 'pretends belief' that doesnt work. A knack of 'enflaming oneself in belief' ... like 'enflaming oneself in prayer'. Too little 'pressure' it doesnt work - too much and it can take over. A bit like having a wild horse; good for speed. stamina and courage, but harder to control.

In any case, the 'philosophical mental exercises' of Thelema, in many cases advocate doubt, not belief. (Unless one starts off full of doubt ;) )
 

PathWalker

I am finding the beliefs thing a bit tricky as well. I tend to have a viewpoint that philosophies, religions gods etc come in an acceptable form for your own beliefs. Having said that having been brought up with a Christian influence at home (and culturally) these images are still powerful. Fortunately though this was not about religious adherence, more about personal faith and god in all things.



he does write with chocolaty charm :)

This thread is raising some interesting,valid and useful points isn't it?

Lon is also charming on meeting - especially kind to beginners who make complete and utter fools of themselves. You know the "ground, please swallow me up" kind of occasions.
 

Zephyros

This thread is raising some interesting,valid and useful points isn't it?

Lon is also charming on meeting - especially kind to beginners who make complete and utter fools of themselves. You know the "ground, please swallow me up" kind of occasions.

Really? I once wrote him an email and got no answer. I guess it was personal. :D
 

ravenest

next time try making an utter fool of yourself :) ... maybe you asked him a hard question ?