Ape of Thoth flawed!

Lillie said:

I havn't got a new one. I'll take your word for it that it has the new not Georges name on it.

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Who's George?

Lillie said:

I was just commenting on the earlier posts about wether the alpha OTO card would have been used after the guys death.
Which it clearly seems to have been.

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What makes you say this..?

Lillie said:

Have they changed the words on this new one?

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Yes, the text is completely different than the OTO card issued in, lets say for example a large green box edition. See the picture, I admit it's a little blurry.

Lillie said:

Has anyone got every possible variant of this deck ever printed?
And if so, why?

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Why not, this is no different than a tarot deck collection addiction.

The answer to most of these is in a previous post. (Probably one by me)

George is a joke. So is not George.

Other than that................
....................................
???????????????????????????
Who knows?

Edge said:

It would seem proper to update the card with the name of the new Caliph. Regardless, this is no longer the practice of the "powers that be", one only has to look at the OTO card issued in the latest releases of the deck to discover this.

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Well, there is no new Caliph. HB Hymaneus Beta is the OHO (Outer head of the Order)now and he is not a Caliph, Caliph was a temporary office for enmergency (and re-emergent) conditions at the time of Grady Mc Murtry's (H A) 'appointment'. Since then the OTO has been able to establish itself more inline with its constitution (written by AC) and appoint an international head. His name is not George but Bill, and he seems a pretty groovey young guy (but who the hell knows what happens to someone after running an Order like the OTO for some time, I'd imagine he is now bogged down in all sorts of administration, disputes, court cases, disciplines and god-knows what else ... but that's dedication for you!) and this probably explains why (on one level only) why they like to use names other than their own. The OTO has enemies and they are weird, I have even seen a picture of Bill getting into his car outside his house at his (now -ex) home address, posted on the internet by someone who doesnt like him! Thats stalking! geeze, the poor guys just getting into his car trying to go to work or shopping or something.

I think Lillies case stands, that's the guys name that was on them then, a bit like the Old Book four magic by Grant and Symmonds. When the OTO eventually put out the new enlarged and revised edition, (another great work of HB) he wrote the reference and intros, etc and now has his name on the titles and editorship.

Perhaps when OTO has time it will rerun, itself, a new Thoth print and although Grady (HA) will no doubt still have a credit we might then see a credit To HB for any new things discovered and added?

PS. Ravenest is not my real name either.

ravenest said:

I'd imagine he is now bogged down in all sorts of administration, disputes, court cases, disciplines and god-knows what else ....

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Oh yes, and then some! Bourgeois, middle class values and Thelema just don't mix. Aleister would be turning in his grave, if he hadn't been cremated.

ravenest said:

Well, there is no new Caliph. HB Hymaneus Beta is the OHO (Outer head of the Order)now and he is not a Caliph, Caliph was a temporary office for enmergency (and re-emergent) conditions at the time of Grady Mc Murtry's (H A) 'appointment'. Since then the OTO has been able to establish itself more inline with its constitution (written by AC) and appoint an international head. His name is not George but Bill, and he seems a pretty groovey young guy (but who the hell knows what happens to someone after running an Order like the OTO for some time, I'd imagine he is now bogged down in all sorts of administration, disputes, court cases, disciplines and god-knows what else ... but that's dedication for you!) and this probably explains why (on one level only) why they like to use names other than their own. The OTO has enemies and they are weird, I have even seen a picture of Bill getting into his car outside his house at his (now -ex) home address, posted on the internet by someone who doesnt like him! Thats stalking! geeze, the poor guys just getting into his car trying to go to work or shopping or something.

I think Lillies case stands, that's the guys name that was on them then, a bit like the Old Book four magic by Grant and Symmonds. When the OTO eventually put out the new enlarged and revised edition, (another great work of HB) he wrote the reference and intros, etc and now has his name on the titles and editorship.

Perhaps when OTO has time it will rerun, itself, a new Thoth print and although Grady (HA) will no doubt still have a credit we might then see a credit To HB for any new things discovered and added?

PS. Ravenest is not my real name either.

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This term "Caliph" and OHO are one and the same. At least as I understand them. Regardless, my Magus card is still a "one of a kind" but admittedly, this thread has drifted somewhat. PS. Edge is not my real name either.

As me and a number of people have bought decks with the 'old' OTO card, with the dead guys name on, long after his death, it would seem obvious that it was 'in use' long after his death.

Clearly they updated the LWB, they could have updated the OTO card if they wished.
they didn't.
So that seems to show they chose it to be so.

It's hardly a big deal, it just seems obvious that it was so.

And Bill!
Oh my god! Bill!

That's almost as good as George.
I'll hold my hand up here and admit I was wrong.
They do sometimes have normal names.
But you have to admit, most of them are called something like 'Speculum Omega Thyrister'

It all depends how you look at it, but it might be possible that Lillie is my real name.
But mostly it probably isnt.

I keep meaning to have a good look through, see if my deck has any misprinted blobs and such.
I did notice that there is a little red dot on the white bit of the cross on the back.

What I have wondered for a long time is this.
My deck has 81 cards. 78 + Hex + OTO +Blank card.
Now if they are printed like normal, in a 8 X 10 matrix, then one of these cards was added later.
Presumably one of the 3 'extra' cards.
It does not seem to make logical sense that it would be the blank card, that would seem a bit pointless. (unlike my elbow, which does have a point)
So, either the hex or the OTO was added extra.
I have examined these closely on the backs, and I cannot for the life of me figure out which one is the odd one.
Perhaps it is the hex. it's the black and red one, with no white border, so perhaps the problems of printing and cutting borderless black cards meant that it was easier to print them out seperate and add one to every deck.

But there we go.
The things I wonder when I havn't got better things to think about.

Bill, though!
I like that.
See? I was right! Not George!

Lillie said:

And Bill!
Oh my god! Bill!

That's almost as good as George.
I'll hold my hand up here and admit I was wrong.
They do sometimes have normal names.
But you have to admit, most of them are called something like 'Speculum Omega Thyrister'

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Well, you're not totally wrong - you have to dig a little to find the real name of the OHO of the OTO. He goes by "Hymenaeus Beta" in his Order capacities and as a Thelemic scholar (the latter decision being unfortunate, I think, since he is a good scholar and should sign his work with his real name).

His real name is William ("Bill") Breeze. He chose the name "Beta" in honour of Grady McMurtry, who went by "Hymenaeus Alpha". There may be a mystical transition here I am ignorant of, but that's what I know.

Ross

I have been thinking of 'Sphagnum Root Whackit' as as magickal name for myself.

I think it has a distinctive ring about it.

Lillie said:

As me and a number of people have bought decks with the 'old' OTO card, with the dead guys name on, long after his death, it would seem obvious that it was 'in use' long after his death.

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This is obviously true, since you say so.

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm?
Or am I just paranoid?

My word, in and of itself, means nothing.
I am generally a honest person, and do not deliberately lie. Although you do not know me, so again you only have my word on that.
And anyway, I can (and often am) mistaken.

But it isn't just me.
Other people, even on this very thread, have also said that their decks, which date from after the guys death, also contain the OTO card with his name on.
When taken together with my own report about my individual deck, this seems to be a preponderance of evidence indicating that the said OTO card was in use long after the guys death.
The fact that they could have changed this, but did not, would indicate that this was done by choice.

It appears to me that all the 'green' thoths have the same OTO card in them.
These were on sale until around 2000.
The LWB's seem to have been updated regularly showing that these were not all old stock.
So the logical conclusion is that these were printed and sold the way they were because that was the way they were designed to be.
Both by USG who published it (And possibly Weiser), and also by the OTO who seem to have the final say in anything to do with this deck.

I don't know why this has turned into such a big deal.
All I have been doing all through my contribution to this thread, is to tell the truth about the deck I own, and to say honestly the conclusions I draw from my own deck, and from what others have said about theirs.
And I don't know why it even matters whoes name is on the card and when it was printed and when he snuffed it.

But it appears to have been implied that I am either a liar or that there is something wrong with my powers of observation and logical deduction.
Or even worse, that there is something 'not right' about my deck!
And if these things are being said, or thought, about me (and it appears to me that this is indeed the case), then I will defend my self and the things I have said.
And I will defend my juicy green deck. because it's mine, and there is nothing wrong with it.
Although it is very green.
but that's not it's fault.

And no, it's not called George.
It's called 'Hey you!'