Suicide

Minderwiz

I would think that many "standard" or "typical" suicide signatures would be found to be invalid in most cases due to this personal approach to life and death.

Yes I think that is spot on, Dave. The trouble with taking 'Astrological Signatures' as correct in all cases is that they do ignore the individual and the context. Also we are never sure how many people have this 'signature' and don't commit suicide (or do whatever the 'signature' suggests). At most they may indicate possibilities but no more.

YDM42. I should make myself very clear on prediction. Seldom can one look at a chart, as an astrologer and not as a psychic, and absolutely "see" the event in one's life. Yet, when we have an opportunity to share with a client many details in their life, we find ourselves having a CONTEXT into which we can place various types of charts and their symbols. From this we can predict.

First, we do have to know how one's life is flowing and what is likely to be "possible".....

Again I have to agree with this and I really like the contrast between Astrologer and Psychic. Astrology works well in hindsight to help explain why something happened but it's not so easy to look at a chart, natal or derived for a future date and say what will happen. That's because planets signify not just one thing but a number of things, both as inherent properties and through their role in a chart (by house placement or house rulership) and even for the same person they don't always express exactly the same thing each time they are active.

Dave shows how his methods can cast light on Alan Turing's suicide and I think that is a very useful exercise for others to follow. Indeed it prompted me to have a look at whether the traditional methods can help do the same. I tried several and got some good fits with the events but I'll give just one as an example.

Vettius Valens gives a unique method of using profections (unique as far as we have evidence). Using Turing as the example, he committed suicide in his 42nd year. Age 42 is a sixth house year. Valens peculiar method is to look for planets which are six signs apart and to have them as the 'transmitting' and 'receiving' signs. Valens of course would only use the planets that he could see. So I'll follow suit and identify just two such cases in Turing's chart. Valens would have used whole sign houses for this with Gemini as the first House. In a sixth house year, Saturn (in the twelfth sign of Taurus) hands over to the Moon (in the fifth sign of Libra). The Moon now is Lord 12 for the year (Valens took planets in signs rather than ruling signs for this variant)

The other case is Jupiter, natally in it's own sign of Sagittarius (the Seventh) which hands over to Saturn in Taurus (the twelfth). So we have a focus on the Twelfth house of enemies, and affliction of the soul and the Seventh House of relationships and marriage (echoed by the Moon in the fifth). Of course Turing was gay and could not marry and any relationship he had was illegal at the time - for which he was to pay dearly.

The last month of that 42nd year, was a Virgo month and Virgo, his fourth, contains his Lot of Nemisis - the forces which cannot really be overcome by our own efforts (and the Lot of Saturn). Mercury rules Virgo, and it also rules Gemini, his Ascendant (his body mind and spirit).

If we move on to the 7th, the day of his assumed suicide, we find it is a Scorpio day, which is his sixth House ruled by Mars, Mars was Retrograde in the eight house of Capricorn (the house of Death)and in opposition to natal Mercury (his Ascendant ruler) accurate to half a degree (it had just finished it's transit of Mercury). Saturn is in his sixth house also retrograde and has just transited his Lot of Eros (relationships and love affairs), Jupiter has just transited his natal Sun (echoing the importance of relationships here).

Natally Saturn is Lord 8 and Lord 9 - the eighth house is obvious here but for those that are not aware of the case, the ninth is also important. The ninth is the house of Law and of the courts and justice. Turing had been convicted because of his homosexual relationship in 1952 (a harsh and unyielding approach, typically Saturnian). He had agreed to be treated with female hormones rather than go to prison and on the day he died the transiting Moon (Lord 12 for the year) was applying to a conjunction with his Lot of Nemesis in Virgo (and may have actually completed the conjunction).l Now I wouldn't place a great emphasis on the Moon's transit of that point on it's own (it happens every month) but of more interest is the close sextile mutual reception between transiting Mars and Saturn, which are natally Lords 6 and 8 but are transposed by transit.

The chart for the day, shows clearly with hindsight and knowledge of the context that death is a real possiblity for that day, given the circumstances. (incidentally Jupiter was also the ruler of his tenth house and his career was ruined through the conviction).

Without that knowledge of context the chart shows nothing special at all and we would not have been able to predict the suicide on that day - though we might have become more aware of the possibilities following the 1952 court case. Tomorrow, Easter Sunday is the anniversary of that court case 61 years ago.
 

YDM42

Yes I think that is spot on, Dave. The trouble with taking 'Astrological Signatures' as correct in all cases is that they do ignore the individual and the context. Also we are never sure how many people have this 'signature' and don't commit suicide (or do whatever the 'signature' suggests). At most they may indicate possibilities but no more.



Again I have to agree with this and I really like the contrast between Astrologer and Psychic. Astrology works well in hindsight to help explain why something happened but it's not so easy to look at a chart, natal or derived for a future date and say what will happen. That's because planets signify not just one thing but a number of things, both as inherent properties and through their role in a chart (by house placement or house rulership) and even for the same person they don't always express exactly the same thing each time they are active
Minderwiz the term "Express" or "Expression" is a wonderful term to help me understand what is being said. I know this connection in my mind might be weird, but it reminds me of a pine tree, or bonsai, with all the scientific elements of what makes it a pine tree being the same, but each tree, sometimes thousands in one park or forest expresses its self so differently. Each tree is unique in that aspect.
Dave shows how his methods can cast light on Alan Turing's suicide and I think that is a very useful exercise for others to follow. Indeed it prompted me to have a look at whether the traditional methods can help do the same. I tried several and got some good fits with the events but I'll give just one as an example.

Vettius Valens gives a unique method of using profections (unique as far as we have evidence). Using Turing as the example, he committed suicide in his 42nd year. Age 42 is a sixth house year. Valens peculiar method is to look for planets which are six signs apart and to have them as the 'transmitting' and 'receiving' signs. Valens of course would only use the planets that he could see. So I'll follow suit and identify just two such cases in Turing's chart. Valens would have used whole sign houses for this with Gemini as the first House. In a sixth house year, Saturn (in the twelfth sign of Taurus) hands over to the Moon (in the fifth sign of Libra). The Moon now is Lord 12 for the year (Valens took planets in signs rather than ruling signs for this variant)

The other case is Jupiter, natally in it's own sign of Sagittarius (the Seventh) which hands over to Saturn in Taurus (the twelfth). So we have a focus on the Twelfth house of enemies, and affliction of the soul and the Seventh House of relationships and marriage (echoed by the Moon in the fifth). Of course Turing was gay and could not marry and any relationship he had was illegal at the time - for which he was to pay dearly.

The last month of that 42nd year, was a Virgo month and Virgo, his fourth, contains his Lot of Nemisis - the forces which cannot really be overcome by our own efforts (and the Lot of Saturn). Mercury rules Virgo, and it also rules Gemini, his Ascendant (his body mind and spirit).

If we move on to the 7th, the day of his assumed suicide, we find it is a Scorpio day, which is his sixth House ruled by Mars, Mars was Retrograde in the eight house of Capricorn (the house of Death)and in opposition to natal Mercury (his Ascendant ruler) accurate to half a degree (it had just finished it's transit of Mercury). Saturn is in his sixth house also retrograde and has just transited his Lot of Eros (relationships and love affairs), Jupiter has just transited his natal Sun (echoing the importance of relationships here).

Natally Saturn is Lord 8 and Lord 9 - the eighth house is obvious here but for those that are not aware of the case, the ninth is also important. The ninth is the house of Law and of the courts and justice. Turing had been convicted because of his homosexual relationship in 1952 (a harsh and unyielding approach, typically Saturnian). He had agreed to be treated with female hormones rather than go to prison and on the day he died the transiting Moon (Lord 12 for the year) was applying to a conjunction with his Lot of Nemesis in Virgo (and may have actually completed the conjunction).l Now I wouldn't place a great emphasis on the Moon's transit of that point on it's own (it happens every month) but of more interest is the close sextile mutual reception between transiting Mars and Saturn, which are natally Lords 6 and 8 but are transposed by transit.

The chart for the day, shows clearly with hindsight and knowledge of the context that death is a real possiblity for that day, given the circumstances. (incidentally Jupiter was also the ruler of his tenth house and his career was ruined through the conviction).

Without that knowledge of context the chart shows nothing special at all and we would not have been able to predict the suicide on that day - though we might have become more aware of the possibilities following the 1952 court case. Tomorrow, Easter Sunday is the anniversary of that court case 61 years ago.
 

dadsnook2000

Turing

I wrote an article which was published in ISARs journal a year or so ago. Turing was an exceptional person in so many ways. It was interesting that Uranus was conjunct his MC in his birth chart. In that period, Uranus was often cited as a symbol that could be associated with homosexuality. Perhaps that was appropriate a century ago to some significant extent. Yet, today, that is too simplistic by far. On my blog site, noted earlier in these postings, I am following the life of Ellen Degeneres who is a TV talk show host and celebrity famous for being famous. She has been a lesbian and was approached one night when moviedom was awarding Oscars in Hollywood by Anne Heche, an actress. Anne was not gay, yet was so attracted to Ellen that they immediately commenced a love affair that very evening that they met. None of these charts, using 1) S/R and daily charts, 2) Moon-to-Sun Returns and advanced charts, or 3) Diurnal charts indicated anything except normal person-to-person interchanges relative to the events on any of the days looked at.

Love is a universal and personal experience. Homosexuality is no longer unique in many communities and individuals no longer experience or view life differently because of it. Such is the strength of astrology, or the weakness of narrowly practised astrology. We have to practice astrology within the context of our culture. It is, after all, a symbolic language. Dave
 

Minderwiz

I wrote an article which was published in ISARs journal a year or so ago. Turing was an exceptional person in so many ways. It was interesting that Uranus was conjunct his MC in his birth chart. In that period, Uranus was often cited as a symbol that could be associated with homosexuality. Perhaps that was appropriate a century ago to some significant extent. Yet, today, that is too simplistic by far.........

Love is a universal and personal experience. Homosexuality is no longer unique in many communities and individuals no longer experience or view life differently because of it. Such is the strength of astrology, or the weakness of narrowly practised astrology. We have to practice astrology within the context of our culture. It is, after all, a symbolic language. Dave

You put that so well. I'm not so sure that homosexuality was ever unique in any community, though it may well have been the subject of attempts to use the law and the force of religion against it, with the result that it was not openly practiced.

When I studied Plato, nearly 50 years ago, I was surprised how often there were references to homosexuality that were 'accepting it as if not natural, then by no means unique or horrifying but regularly encountered' (Plato was probably gay). This year when reading Hellenistic Astrology texts, I've come across a number of references which seem to take it as a fact of social life, though not necessarily something the writers approved of.

Treating it as 'unusual' or 'unique' seems to be a product of Christian (and Muslim) cultures. Later Hellenisitic Astrology seems more antagonistic and the Astrology developed by the Arabs in the early Medieval period must have also had the predisposition to treat homosexuality as a 'perversion' that appealed to christian views of morality. With the rise of puritanism in the late sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries the situation probably deteriorated. The result was at best an attempt to ignore it and at worst an attempt to suppress and punish that we meet in the Indecency Laws used against Turing (and Oscar Wilde and many other less famous people). This failure to recognise how common it was probably led those early twentieth century Astrologers to associate Uranus with it. As Dave says that is an association should not be treated as valid, nor should any other simplistic attempt to define an astrological signature.

Had Turing lived another 13 years he would have been free to practice openly. Which also raises the question about whether 'law' and 'culture' are always in tune (the same issue might now be discussed in relation to anti-drug legislation.
 

paradoxx

Could be an accelerated use of brain fluid at any given time, that and some biological adjustments to current stress factors, a dose of voulentary and rational authority (authority did not have to be rational to achieve its final objective).