What makes Thoth Thoth?

Mariana

Aeon418 said:
Simple answer, The Golden Dawn.

You're doing it again.

Yes, philosophically/historically that's the correct answer. That's where the concepts came from. But artistically, the Vision Quest may just have been designed by someone who had a Thoth deck and looked at the art of the minors - possibly without knowing more about Thoth than that. That's where the pictures in this actual deck came from. And as you have explained, from the point of a view of someone who has studied the philosophies behind the Thoth, the Vision Quest is not Thoth-based (in its philosophy). The pictures, however, are obviously inspired by the Thoth and not the RWS. And yes, both the RWS and Crowley's Thoth are based on the Golden Dawn philosophical concepts. But still, even though there are other Golden Dawn decks, visually the RWS and Crowley's Thoth are the only well-known (among a general tarot public) artistic versions of these concepts. Therefore artistically most contemporary decks, especially the ones without philosophical depth and originality, are based on the artwork of either the RWS or Crowley's Thoth (or the TdM, obviously). That may not make them RWS-decks or Thoth-decks, as you have pointed out, but that's where they got their (lack of) inspiration for the artwork... I think we agree on this?

Aeon418

Mariana said:
But artistically, the Vision Quest may have been designed by someone who had a Thoth deck and looked at the art of the minors - possibly without knowing more about Thoth than that.

This is why I completely agree with Umbrae when he said it was "really unfortunate that (IMO), the term Thoth Based has become a catch-all term".

If the creator of the Vision Quest has merely lifted a few artistic trappings from the Thoth and ignored the underlying essence, surely it deserves to be interpreted as a unique deck in it's own right? Why treat the Vision Quest like the Thoth if it is only pretending to look like it on the surface?

I don't believe this is the case though. The creator of the Vision Quest clearly understands the Thoth's Golden Dawn origins in Book T.
http://www.tarotpassages.com/vq1.jpg

ravenest

Aeon418 said:
If the creator of the Vision Quest has merely lifted a few artistic trappings from the Thoth and ignored the underlying essence, surely it deserves to be interpreted as a unique deck in it's own right? Why treat the Vision Quest like the Thoth if it is only pretending to look like it on the surface?

Yes, and if it is a copy of artistic style should we not say it is a deck influenced by projective geometry? Projective geometry style art does not make a deck like a Thoth deck.

Without wanting to get 'into trouble' [ like Aeon418 often does

] the issue seems to be one of an indepth understanding vs a superficial observation.

Aeon418

ravenest said:
Yes, and if it is a copy of artistic style should we not say it is a deck influenced by projective geometry? Projective geometry style art does not make a deck like a Thoth deck.

That's a good point. It's a shame there's no projective geometry in the the Vision Quest though. :laugh:

ravenest said:
Without wanting to get 'into trouble' [ like Aeon418 often does ]

Coward!

Thou then, who hast trials and troubles, rejoice because of them, for in them is Strength, and by their means is a pathway opened unto that Light.