new planets in thoth tarot

ravenest

Hercolobus??????

www.hercolubus.tv

Oh ... send for the free copy ... you will never regret it!

I found out from this book how UFOs work ... levers, thats how. And the people on Mars wear a sword (but they are not violent), and people on Venus wear green.
 

Richard

ravenest said:
www.hercolubus.tv

Oh ... send for the free copy ... you will never regret it!

I found out from this book how UFOs work ... levers, thats how. And the people on Mars wear a sword (but they are not violent), and people on Venus wear green.
Oh, wow! Thanks for the heads up. I've always wondered about those things. Glad the Mars folks are not violent. (I'm a non-violent Aries myself.) Do Venusian women have red hair? Green goes great with red hair. :D
 

ravenest

LRichard said:
Oh, wow! Thanks for the heads up. I've always wondered about those things. Glad the Mars folks are not violent. (I'm a non-violent Aries myself.) Do Venusian women have red hair? Green goes great with red hair. :D

Read the book. Serious, I've never read anything like it - amazing.

Aside ... Neptonium? Maybe - it DOES have an atomic number of 93. :laugh:
 

Richard

I sent off for the book.

In one of C. S. Lewis' novels, I think, the Venusians have green skin, but I don't recall what they wear. Maybe they don't wear clothes.
 

MasterJm

Many people have applied the modern planets, Crowley made some effort to do the same, but he was limited by being born a decade or two too early and not having all 3 discovered and in astrological use during his lifetime.

Many others from the GD heritage or it's offshoots do use them. I prefer the version Fool/Air = Uranus, Hanged Man/Water = Neptune and Aeon/Fire = Pluto. I find these more useful to me than assigning the modern planets to the Sephiroth (and Daath), though the Sephiroth version has its appeal also.

There are other versions, the Hermetic Tarot give Pluto to The Fool for example. I guess whichever version appeals to you is a good one.


Some times the thelemic Aeon doctrine remembers me the theosophical Secret Doctrine. Fool/Air as the 3rd lemurian hermaphrodite human race - "be neither man nor woman, but both in one" (The Fool) living in ignorance, Hanged Man/Water as the 4th race and his destruction by the water/flood (Atlantis) and Aeon/Fire as our 5th arian race and his destruction that will be happen by fire and heat as the theosophists believe. In that sense maybe it seems logical to give Pluto to to The Fool, because the 3rd lemurian race has been destructed by earthquakes and volcanos erruptions (a plutonian issue) and Uranus to Aeon (revolution, high intelligence etc).
 

Barleywine

Many people have applied the modern planets, Crowley made some effort to do the same, but he was limited by being born a decade or two too early and not having all 3 discovered and in astrological use during his lifetime.

Many others from the GD heritage or it's offshoots do use them. I prefer the version Fool/Air = Uranus, Hanged Man/Water = Neptune and Aeon/Fire = Pluto. I find these more useful to me than assigning the modern planets to the Sephiroth (and Daath), though the Sephiroth version has its appeal also.

There are other versions, the Hermetic Tarot give Pluto to The Fool for example. I guess whichever version appeals to you is a good one.

As an astrologer I've developed an ambivalence toward the modern planets, and since discovering the re-emergent astrological tradition I've tended to push them into the background. Crowley discussed his take on them in The General Principles of Astrology (with thoughts on Pluto added later by editor Hymenaeus Beta), but didn't touch on Tree of Life or Book of Thoth correspondences because he was ghost-writing for populist astrologer Evangeline Adams.

I've had this debate with myself for decades now (nobody else in these parts to discuss it with); where do we put the modern planets on the Tree? For me, Crowley didn't quite nail it. My working hypothesis has been to put them on the sephirot but not on the paths, nor do I see a need to assign them to the cards as the elemental Fire, Water and Air attributions are perfectly serviceable. A few things that make me wonder:

Pluto I can see as Fire (since hypothetical planet Vulcan is still sitting on the sidelines with hypothetical planet Niburu, and the so-called Uranian or trans-Neptunian hypotheticals have drifted into obscurity). I agree that the best fit seems to be with Kether as it sits directly above Tiphareth, and I read a "Sun behind the Sun" (and "Son") analogy somewhere a long time ago. Although its modern rulership is Water-sign Scorpio, there is much of a "banked fire" character to that sign, and some astrologers have Pluto as exalted in Fire-sign Leo as well.

Since we are considering modern astrological theory and Uranus has been tagged as the "planet of astrology" as well as ruling Air-sign Aquarius, why shouldn't it be paired with the "sphere of the zodiac," Chokmah? Furthermore, Uranus was "Father Sky" in ancient Greek literature.

Although qabalistic thought describes Da'at as a "non-sephirot" (or at best a "concealed" one - is that Niburu I see peeking out of the closet? ;)), it would seem to be a perfect match for nebulous, mysterious Neptune, modern ruler of mystical Water-sign Pisces.

Just my 2 shekels' worth. Although working out potential correspondences is interesting (I do like Aeon = Pluto, although the latter has been "shrunken" in status now) I have no particular stake in any of this since I don't see the need for it. I suppose, though, that "nature abhors a vacuum . . ."
 

ravenest

I sent off for the book.

In one of C. S. Lewis' novels, I think, the Venusians have green skin, but I don't recall what they wear. Maybe they don't wear clothes.

Did the book arrive .... did you read it ?
 

ravenest

As an astrologer I've developed an ambivalence toward the modern planets, and since discovering the re-emergent astrological tradition I've tended to push them into the background. Crowley discussed his take on them in The General Principles of Astrology (with thoughts on Pluto added later by editor Hymenaeus Beta), but didn't touch on Tree of Life or Book of Thoth correspondences because he was ghost-writing for populist astrologer Evangeline Adams.

I've had this debate with myself for decades now (nobody else in these parts to discuss it with); where do we put the modern planets on the Tree? For me, Crowley didn't quite nail it. My working hypothesis has been to put them on the sephirah but not on the paths, nor do I see a need to assign them to the cards as the elemental Fire, Water and Air attributions are perfectly serviceable. A few things that make me wonder:

Pluto I can see as Fire (since hypothetical planet Vulcan is still sitting on the sidelines with hypothetical planet Niburu, and the so-called Uranian or trans-Neptunian hypotheticals have drifted into obscurity). I agree that the best fit seems to be with Kether as it sits directly above Tiphareth, and I read a "Sun behind the Sun" (and "Son") analogy somewhere a long time ago. Although its modern rulership is Water-sign Scorpio, there is much of a "banked fire" character to that sign, and some astrologers have Pluto as exalted in Fire-sign Leo as well.

Since we are considering modern astrological theory and Uranus has been tagged as the "planet of astrology" as well as ruling Air-sign Aquarius, why shouldn't it be paired with the "sphere of the zodiac," Chokmah? Furthermore, Uranus was "Father Sky" in ancient Greek literature.

Although qabalistic thought describes Da'at as a "non-sephirot" (or at best a "concealed" one - is that Niburu I see peeking out of the closet? ;)), it would seem to be a perfect match for nebulous, mysterious Neptune, modern ruler of mystical Water-sign Pisces.

Just my 2 shekels' worth. Although working out potential correspondences is interesting (I do like Aeon = Pluto, although the latter has been "shrunken" in status now) I have no particular stake in any of this since I don't see the need for it. I suppose, though, that "nature abhors a vacuum . . ."

After years I decided it doesnt work ... its like mixing sand and cheese.

Sure ... use the Hermetic Kabbalah and the ToL .... but with trad correspondence. As you say ... seems to work fine as it is. The ToL is describing and outlining a specific concept ... that concept does not have to include the outer planets (beyond Saturn). For those concepts, or similar concepts I should say , the ToL has already them tagged and named.

For me, the ToL does not supply an astrological system ... thats a different field .... the outer planets ( or transpersonal planets) define a different function for me that the ToL doesnt. Astrologically (in an astrological system as opposed to a kabbalistic one) there is a sensible 'division' between the inner personal planets and the outer transpersonal planets, which reflect in higher and lower order (in triangulation) and in this Mars just doesn not fit 'up there' like it does on the Tree of Life.

I developed my own tree for this ... Mars fits nicely, everthing balances and reflects and the outer planets fit perfectly in a 'Supernal triad' at the top .... but it isnt Kabbalah ... it is an astro psychology Tree.

Of course people will put the outer planets on the top of the ToL ... Liber Abba, I think has some diagrams in the back section about it.
 

Richard

Did the book arrive .... did you read it ?
I couldn't read it. It emitted really bad vibes. I'm serious. I hid it away somewhere. I forget where.
 

Barleywine

After years I decided it doesnt work ... its like mixing sand and cheese.

Sure ... use the Hermetic Kabbalah and the ToL .... but with trad correspondence. As you say ... seems to work fine as it is. The ToL is describing and outlining a specific concept ... that concept does not have to include the outer planets (beyond Saturn). For those concepts, or similar concepts I should say , the ToL has already them tagged and named.

For me, the ToL does not supply an astrological system ... thats a different field .... the outer planets ( or transpersonal planets) define a different function for me that the ToL doesnt. Astrologically (in an astrological system as opposed to a kabbalistic one) there is a sensible 'division' between the inner personal planets and the outer transpersonal planets, which reflect in higher and lower order (in triangulation) and in this Mars just doesn not fit 'up there' like it does on the Tree of Life.

I agree in principal. I can see no really compelling reason to include them, other than for completeness (and because I love a metaphysical conundrum). But if we have a fully-functional astrological system without them, why do we need them on the Tree? I'm reminded of what Frater Achad (Charles Stansfeld Jones) said in "Q.B.L or The Bride's Reception." After likening the ToL and its correspondences to "a convenient means of classification, a sort of Filing Cabinet, together with much valuable material ready to file and room for all we may collect in our future researches," he goes on to say: "We shall find in ths "Filing Cabinet" a means of GETTING RID (his caps) of a great many IDEAS which have been valueless on account of their unbalanced nature." The inclusion of the outer planets in the astrological model certainly upset the perfect balance and symmetry of the classical way of ordering the planets according to their traditional rulerships. Their affinities by sign are really no more certain than their affinities by sephirah, since they don't have the weight of millenia of observation behind them.