Hierophant's sadistic aspect

MasterJm

Thelema is ultimately sadistic. It isn't concerned with compassion but the accomplishment of one's True Will. It's Nietzschean in this sense:

"We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world." AL 2:21

To Crowley, compassion belongs to planes of illusion. While it may serve a purpose for those less enlightened, for those working toward the accomplishment of the Great Work it's a wrong way of thinking:

"The prophet was again perplexed and troubled; for in his soul was Compassion for all beings. But though his Compassion is a feeling perhaps admirable and necessary for mortals, yet it pertains to the planes of Illusion. It is based on a misapprehension." Old and New Commentaries to Liber AL; AL 2:46; "Old Comment."

If Crowley's life is any indicator, following one's True Will inevitably brings sorrow and pain to other at some point. While this is impossible for anyone to avoid in life, the difference between the Thelemite and the "average" person is the Thelemite derives enjoyment in the suffering of others: "this is our law and the joy of the world." The reason for this is simple, the Thelemite believes they are strong and are being held back by the weak. For this reason the weak should suffer, and ultimately be eradicated if they can't wake to their True Will:

"At present all the strong are being damaged, and their progress hindered by the dead weight of the weak limbs and the missing limbs, the diseased limbs and the atrophied limbs. The Christians to the Lions!" Old and New Commentaries to Liber AL; AL 2:21; "New Comment."

The thing I don't understand is how it's possible for the strong to be held back by the weak?

I'm not trying to stir up anything. It's a sincere attempt to answer MasterJm's question. Ultimately it's my opinion.


I see also many commons between the Book of the Law and Zaratustra, but Zaratustra says ignore the weak, skip over, don't lose your time and also destroy the old structures. A sadist is dependable on the weak and the masochist. Τwo poles of the same thing, therefore we are saying sadomasochism. He needs the weak and feeds himself by them and he needs also the structures. A sadist is totally dependable and weak. I cant see thelemic freedom in that sense.
 

Barleywine

If Crowley's life is any indicator, following one's True Will inevitably brings sorrow and pain to other at some point. While this is impossible for anyone to avoid in life, the difference between the Thelemite and the "average" person is the Thelemite derives enjoyment in the suffering of others: "this is our law and the joy of the world." The reason for this is simple, the Thelemite believes they are strong and are being held back by the weak. For this reason the weak should suffer, and ultimately be eradicated if they can't wake to their True Will:

"At present all the strong are being damaged, and their progress hindered by the dead weight of the weak limbs and the missing limbs, the diseased limbs and the atrophied limbs. The Christians to the Lions!" Old and New Commentaries to Liber AL; AL 2:21; "New Comment."

Probably the best reason for solitary work (not involving sex-magic, that is). This was mentioned in passing in the Hermit thread. (I'm distrustful of "enlightened" organizations anyway, unless they're informal gatherings of like-minded seekers wirh no money changing hands.)

The thing I don't understand is how it's possible for the strong to be held back by the weak?

Because there are so many of "them?" A caribou is immeasurably stronger than a blood-sucking black fly, but the sheer numbers of the latter in the arctic region are linked by some researchers to a fall-off in caribou populations. I'm surprised Crowley didn't use the term "vampire" (of a different sort) as one of his epithets. Dion Fortune wrote convincingly about them.
 

Richard

I really think that the popular misconception of Nietzsche, due largely to his stupid sister and the Nazis, should not pass uncorrected. Nietzsche did not despise the meek, weak, and helpless, he only despised those who would make a virtue out of being meek, weak, and helpless, those who advocate what he called a slave morality. He didn't hate slaves, he hated those who teach that the slave mentality is a virtue. There is a huge difference there.

The world would be a better place if people would really read Nietzsche and take him seriously and ignore references which distort his views and quote him out of context.
 

Barleywine

I really think that the popular misconception of Nietzsche, due largely to his stupid sister and the Nazis, should not pass uncorrected. Nietzsche did not despise the meek, weak, and helpless, he only despised those who would make a virtue out of being meek, weak, and helpless, those who advocate what he called a slave morality. He didn't hate slaves, he hated those who teach that the slave mentality is a virtue. There is a huge difference there.

The world would be a better place if people would really read Nietzsche and take him seriously and ignore references which distort his views and quote him out of context.

I always thought of Ayn Rand as rather Nietzschean in this regard, but apparently she disavowed that, and eventually so did her scholarly analysts.
 

Richard

......Always i was feeling and believing that all these "brothers" and their systems are represented by the Emperor, not by the Hierophant, because the Emperor is a card that means structure, rules, hierarchy and also rigidity, conservatism...i find all these modern "initiations" systems too much wordly, i can't find almost nothing esoterical.
The Emperor is Mercy (Chesed). The Heirophant is Severity (Geburah).
 

Richard

I always thought of Ayn Rand as rather Nietzschean in this regard, but apparently she disavowed that, and eventually so did her scholarly analysts.
Rand, in a sense, worshipped the almighty dollar (or rather its gold equivalent :)). She admired integrity and leadership qualities in men. Nietzsche was more interested in self mastery, not political or economic power.
 

MasterJm

The Emperor is Mercy (Chesed). The Heirophant is Severity (Geburah).


I hate the little emperors of my life. Their "moral" world is so neutral, hypocritical and inconcerned for me covering up the truth in the name of order and good reputation. Betrayers and fake friends.
 

Barleywine

Rand, in a sense, worshipped the almighty dollar (or rather its gold equivalent :)). She admired integrity and leadership qualities in men. Nietzsche was more interested in self mastery, not political or economic power.

I was thinking more of her attitude toward the moral weakness of the parasites who rode on the coat-tails of her heroes.
 

Richard

I hate the little emperors of my life. Their "moral" world is so neutral, hypocritical and inconcerned for me covering up the truth in the name of order and good reputation. Betrayers and fake friends.
I call them the bureaucrats.
 

ravenest

Thelema is ultimately sadistic. It isn't concerned with compassion but the accomplishment of one's True Will. It's Nietzschean in this sense:

"We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world." AL 2:21

To Crowley, compassion belongs to planes of illusion. While it may serve a purpose for those less enlightened, for those working toward the accomplishment of the Great Work it's a wrong way of thinking:

"The prophet was again perplexed and troubled; for in his soul was Compassion for all beings. But though his Compassion is a feeling perhaps admirable and necessary for mortals, yet it pertains to the planes of Illusion. It is based on a misapprehension." Old and New Commentaries to Liber AL; AL 2:46; "Old Comment."

If Crowley's life is any indicator, following one's True Will inevitably brings sorrow and pain to other at some point. While this is impossible for anyone to avoid in life, the difference between the Thelemite and the "average" person is the Thelemite derives enjoyment in the suffering of others: "this is our law and the joy of the world." The reason for this is simple, the Thelemite believes they are strong and are being held back by the weak. For this reason the weak should suffer, and ultimately be eradicated if they can't wake to their True Will:

"At present all the strong are being damaged, and their progress hindered by the dead weight of the weak limbs and the missing limbs, the diseased limbs and the atrophied limbs. The Christians to the Lions!" Old and New Commentaries to Liber AL; AL 2:21; "New Comment."

The thing I don't understand is how it's possible for the strong to be held back by the weak?

I'm not trying to stir up anything. It's a sincere attempt to answer MasterJm's question. Ultimately it's my opinion.

I'm sorry, but as a Thelemite, this is one of the biggest messes I have read.

And a very limited and obscure one at that as well. You seem to have interpreted the whole thing literally so there is no surprise that you dont understand how it is possible that the weak are held back by the strong. Look for symbolic and metaphoric meaning.

Also, IMO 2:21 makes perfect sense if we hear it as 'the voice of evolutionary drive'. Its not telling us how to behave as people. Neither do Thelemites go to churches and trample crosses and spit in the face of the BVM statue (okay ... maybe an individual might ... I am not saying Thelemites dont suffer human confusions, malfunctions and criminal acts, I am talking generally) .

After working as a Thelemite and being in the OTO (in the past) for years on end and observing so much devotion and effort a lot of people put into helping others develop and find themselves and refine their path (I am only speaking from my own experience in my own country), it seems very ignorant and uneducated (on a magical level) for someone to say those people were on a path of sadism !

Ummm ... Thelema is NOT the philosophy that exhibits the EVIDENCE which you suggest. The evidence (by actions) is QUIET clear were and in what arena negative or sadistic action takes place.

" If Crowley's life is any indicator, following one's True Will inevitably brings sorrow and pain to other at some point. While this is impossible for anyone to avoid in life, the difference between the Thelemite and the "average" person is the Thelemite derives enjoyment in the suffering of others." Im sorry Abrac but so much of that is plain wrong. I cant help thinking that anyone that interprets things that way must be adding a few of their own ingredients.

Perhaps each individual who COULD be strong should look at the weight of their own dead limbs that are weakly holding them back ?

But I suppose I cant 'blame' people for their outlook, it is difficult from the outside. Again, it is VERY hard to follow the system without proper instruction and development and an understanding of the metaphors and the subsequent teachings and initiations which accompany them and IMO ... that goes for a fuller use of the Thoth deck as well. In those teachings and initiations ... either written or re written by Crowley I have found NOTHING as you suggest ... some might say the insistance on self help is a bit hard, but NO WHERE as 'sadistic' as my martial arts training ( which was just my lazy self thinking it was sadistic).

It is as if some 'eavesdropper' peeked through the Freemasonic Temple window and saw a bunch of men standing around another pointing their swords at him ... and ran off saying 'They kill people in there!'

The key to understanding Thelema, Crowley and Thoth IS NOT to delight in other people's sufferings :rolleyes: it is something else ... that I hope people can begin to see a glimmer of.

However I must say that I have observed delight in others suffering as a large component of modern life outside of Thelema.

I had an immigrant workmate and he was confused about the particular expression of western culture here. He said when he was struggling and trying to get established people were nice and helped him. When he became successful they turned against him and started being nasty to him. Then when his business failed some mocked him for being successful when he was. I achieved something I really wanted at that stage ... he came up to me and shook my hand and said congratulations. I asked why, he said "For getting something you wanted." It was genuine.

So often, in this economic 'rationalist' society of ours I have seen and experienced, if not delight, but at least gloating in the suffering of others ... the loss of others ... the gaining of advantage over others ... hey man THAT IS OUR competitive society ... its all through sports, business, work, love even.

Dont try to blame THAT on Themela ! Society needs to look at itself first!

Thelema is essentially about the equality and validity and development of each persons True Will. It is NOT essentially about delighting in others suffering - ridiculous!