Do you believe in fate?

Lycanthropos

I don't use the cards for predicting the future, but to see what currents of influence are presently active, and can be used for advantage, with the choices one makes (free will). The present is the intersection of future and history, potential and fact, and is a potent place for humans to act in!

I pretty much follow this line. I don't know if humans are fated to do/meet/live certain things because I don't know the mind of God. Maybe we are, I just don't know. The only predictive work I do is potential short-term outcomes, potential because at any moment we can make a decision that will change the course of our lives. From my perspective, the cards can tell what is likely if we stay on our current path, or if we follow given guidance, and they are usually right, but I would not call it fate because we do have choice.
 

mrpants

To the OP: I don't believe in fate, nor do I perform predictive readings. The Tarot is neither science, or religion.
 

JackofWands

I think it's important to distinguish between the idea of inevitable outcomes based on the principle of cause-and-effect (e.g. if I drop a glass it will fall, if it falls it will break, if it breaks and I step on it with bare feet I'll cut myself) and fate based on the belief in some kind of divine party that's interested in the course of a human life (e.g. Margaret is fated to marry, but her sister Diana is not).

The former is a fundamental principle that orders the universe as we understand it, and I think it's impossible not to believe in it. After all, no one on earth has ever dropped a glass and not had it fall. However, this idea of causal predetermination of certain events really is impersonal. It doesn't have anything to do with any individual, and it's just a set of laws within which we must operate.

The latter idea is harder for me to swallow, because it generally relies on the belief that the agent shaping fate is actively interested in one individual's life and well-being. It's personalized and personified, so that some interested party orchestrated events for Margaret to meet her future spouse on a street corner but chose to keep Diana away from any marriage prospects. The idea that any supernatural agency could actually take that much interest in a human life--especially when there are far larger issues to take care of on a global scale--is difficult for me to accept.

Of course, a third definition of "fate" might be simple luck: events that affect our lives that are beyond our control. And of course these do occur and they do shape our development in ways that we can't predict. But there's no evidence--or at least none that I have been presented with--to move from luck to predestination. Sometimes things happen at random, for good or for ill, but I don't think it's necessary to move from that to a divine roadmap charting out events in a person's life.

Regarding the use of these conceptions of fate in Tarot, I'll use the first but not the second or third. I can look at the principle of cause and effect, because it's something that I as a reader can analyze (e.g. if you return to the man who's cheated on you twice before, you're likely going to get hurt). But as for the second, I've been given no reason to believe that some kind of (benevolent) capital-F Fate is at work, let alone that I can somehow read that Fate's will by looking at a bunch of cards with pretty pictures drawn on them. And for the third definition, well, the whole point of unpredictable events is that they're unpredictable; I don't have the power to read them beforehand, only to interpret their effect after the fact.
 

EyeAmEye

But as for the second, I've been given no reason to believe that some kind of (benevolent) capital-F Fate is at work

Why necessarily believe that fate is benevolent? The concept of karma would suggest malevolent things occur to people who are deserving of such (and not one's actions in this lifetime immediately affecting this lifetime, but the next).

Your second and third options of fate are actually the same thing from different perspectives. Those who believe in fate see it as the second. Those who do not see it as the third. If you believe in fate as described in your second option, you probably don't believe in the concept of "luck" and vice versa.
 

JackofWands

Why necessarily believe that fate is benevolent? The concept of karma would suggest malevolent things occur to people who are deserving of such (and not one's actions in this lifetime immediately affecting this lifetime, but the next).

Yes, I think it's true that the concept of fate necessarily includes bad things happening over the course of one's life. However, (and I speak here only from personal observation, so of course this is my perspective and not me trying to speak as an authority) those who believe in the concept tend to believe that fate itself is benevolent on the whole, as opposed to indifferent or malevolent. The rhetoric I've seen is that bad things are fated to happen so that we can learn from them, grow from them, move forward and find positivity in our lives, etc.

If we take the example you gave--that of karma--then bad things are fated to happen to us as a form of divine retribution for injustices we've committed in the past. But once again, embedded in this concept is the idea that the karmic power doling out our fate is a just one, and that anything bad in our lives happens within a larger framework of justice and goodness. No one wants to believe that bad things are fated for them because the universe just doesn't care about them, or because some divine power is actively out to get them.

The closest we really get to that concept is the Hellenistic Moirae, who were largely indifferent to human petitions and to whom even the gods were beholden. True, the Moirae presented a vision of fate that did not contain within it a sense of implicit justice--and the gods themselves were not always invested in the well-being of mankind--but practitioners of Hellenismos are very rare nowadays and I frankly have never seen anyone else hold to an idea of fate that didn't require some degree of divine benevolence.

Your second and third options of fate are actually the same thing from different perspectives. Those who believe in fate see it as the second. Those who do not see it as the third. If you believe in fate as described in your second option, you probably don't believe in the concept of "luck" and vice versa.

I don't know that this is necessarily true. If we just look back at earlier posts on this thread, we see a lot of people who believe in fate for the large events in a person's life, but not for little things (how your pot roast turns out, what cards you draw in a game of poker, and so on). Those little things are still very much beyond an individual's control, but aren't necessarily fated in the sense that some external, intelligent force is guiding them. So I think it's perfectly reasonable to fit the idea of luck into a world where fate exists, the same way that believing in fate clearly doesn't prevent someone from believing in the principle of causality.
 

2dogs

I find asking the cards very useful for this sort of question and ended up with five questions, going into further detail based on the previous answers, until I had a better understanding. You would probably be more convinced by having a go yourself :livelong:.
 

EyeAmEye

The closest we really get to that concept is the Hellenistic Moirae, who were largely indifferent to human petitions and to whom even the gods were beholden. True, the Moirae presented a vision of fate that did not contain within it a sense of implicit justice--and the gods themselves were not always invested in the well-being of mankind--but practitioners of Hellenismos are very rare nowadays and I frankly have never seen anyone else hold to an idea of fate that didn't require some degree of divine benevolence.

You may have just encountered one, Mr. Wands :)

I don't believe justice nor fate carry any degree of divine benevolence. The universe, God, whatever you wish to call it is balanced, neither good nor bad. In physics we learn everything has an equal and opposite reaction. The balance in between, my opinion naturally, is the divine (ying/yang and various other cultural references). Good things happen because bad does as well, in equal measure across the universe. The good you do may very well be causing, in a manner of speaking, the bad that happens elsewhere and vice versa. I don't believe the point of life is to be good all the time, but we'd be veering well off the topic discussing religious conspiracy stuffs!

As to why people believe what they do about fate/luck and all the rest boils down again, IMO, to humankind having a very high degree of hubris. "We" are in control and what we can explain in terms of free will we accept as fact. What we cannot qualify and quantify we'll chalk up to something called "luck", because if we indulge the concept of the divine too much, we might just have to accept we aren't anywhere close to being as in control of ourselves as we like.
 

Skysteel

I don't think that our lives our predetermined from the moment of birth--I think that our decisions and actions matter.

The scenes of a movie are predetermined from the moment it starts playing - but I don't think that means the scenes in the movie don't matter.
 

Sulis

Moderator message

Hi folks,

Since this is the Talking Tarot forum, could we please keep this tarot related? General discussions about fate need to happen in the Spirituality forum...

Thanks :).

Sulis - moderator