How does Kabbalah fit in with the Tarot....

Nevada said:

In fact, to my thinking, eliminating Crowley as part of the equation is as easy as eliminating Madonna's involvement in Kabbalah, as relevant to what I want to learn from it.

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Yes, especially as its really not his Qabalah at all, even if considering only the modern hermetic-magical variant (bastardization). Even that small facet's origin has little to do with him, except that he was taught it by others and published it with his name on it years later (with a few small variations).

Dismissing the value of Kabbalah because Crowley used it, is much like dismissing the use of color because Picasso used prostitutes and Van Gogh cut off his own ear

He Who Laughs Last, Laughs Last

Fudugazi said:

I sympathise with your desire to find a "grand theory of Everything", a kind of spiritual String theory. Kaballah, like Yoga, seems to be one of those disciplines that attracts universalists. But we are stuck with the reality that diversity exists and most of humanity likes to define itself by its difference from the other, not its similarity. We see that in Tarot, with all its different schools. Add Kabbalah...and it's a recipe for...

...God laughs, of course

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Tell you what, go thru the system I've described and then sympathize.
Prove me wrong. If you can. But look into it first and then tell me exactly how my pot is cracked.
Where my Yoga claim is concerned, I have a feeling you'll get it pretty quickly as the match with Kundalini is pretty obvious.

Consider:
If your mystery "book" were also a calendar charting Saronic, Metonic & Synodic cycles - it would be based on observable patterns no matter where your location on Earth.
If these orbital resonances in our solar system were reflected in nature (say, in Fibonacci sequences) one might feasibly come to the conclusion: as above, so below.
One might even gain an understanding of how this Music of the Spheres were applicable to knowledge of self.

Cards would be a pretty good mnemonic device for encoding that information without ever having to write down its specifics. In other words, a great way to keep a secret thru many generations of transmission. It would be an easy way to lose a secret too.

I have my suspicions as to how Crowley got a hold of it and what it is, but I would rather hear your informed opinion.

Rosanne said:

Well Ange- you have held your ground- with good humour and smilies.
- but as Fudugazi said there is diversity of thought in Tarot and you can find your place within the diversity. If your explorations are only within Tarot, I have nothing further to add- but if you would like to delve into other areas, that have an association now with Tarot- they can be looked at separately, and like all knowledge- you bring any knowledge to the reading table anyway.
The Very best to you in your Tarot travels!
~Rosanne

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Thank you...

Moonbow* said:

Its personal choice whether to use any add-ons with Tarot and they seem to work very well for some people. But, Kabbalah is a beautiful practice when studied correctly, it stands in its own right and I know people who study and live Kabbalah just as some study and live Buddhism or Christianity. It isn't needed to understand Tarot and I believe that its better kept separate unless you are into the Thoth deck, then the 'Qabalah' is certainly of great benefit to understand the deck in depth.

I agree that using any unknown forces without correct knowledge and procedure, and intent, can be dangerous. If you are interested in Kabbalah then learn about it, without the Crowley add-on. If you aren't interested in it then please don't let that be because of your prejudice against one man.

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I think most things in life are down to the individual....goodness, if we all thought the same the world would be a boring place eh..

But yes, I see it as an add-on.....maybe that was what I was trying to say after reading all the different veiws and reading up a bit on it...

I'll be happier just plodding on with my deck and my daydreams...
Ang x

similia said:

Dismissing the value of Kabbalah because Crowley used it, is much like dismissing the use of color because Picasso used prostitutes and Van Gogh cut off his own ear

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I don't think anyone said anything like this. But I'm relieved that you're not suggesting we dismiss the value of prostitutes.

Greg Stanton said:

I don't think anyone said anything like this. But I'm relieved that you're not suggesting we dismiss the value of prostitutes.

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I believe Ange said this in posts 79 & 88, which is what I was responding to. Though you are right, I did not mean to disparage prostitution as I did so

Oops, you're right -- missed those.

Yes that was me...

I said it....

Perhaps didn't get out fully what I meant....it's everything about him that I don't like.....so his involvement with the Kabbalah is just a part of the whole for me.

Ang x

I get it sort of, I think - there are so many Christians in the world who have done great evil that I could never be Christian. It is, after all, the bloodiest religion ever to reign the earth. So I could never participate in it.

Something like that with you and kaballah?

Ange said:

Perhaps didn't get out fully what I meant....it's everything about him that I don't like.....so his involvement with the Kabbalah is just a part of the whole for me.

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Yes, but if you were to apply that thinking consistently, you'd also have to give up tarot, travel, food, wine, sex, writing, poetry, breathing.... everything else that he was equally interested in. And that would be HORIBLE! Not that I'm trying to convert you, just playing

Thinking about this actually, I have a question that has just popped into my head and intrigued me. Do people who use Kabbalah, either as an adjunct to divination, or completely independant from that, think that the same benefits can be obtained from divination without any conscious awareness of a relationship with Kabbalah? Do the shared patterns of 22/10/4/etc have a similar meaning, even if unintended. What about if someone was using an oracle, or runes, or something with a different structure altogether. Does the structure matter so much, as the idea that there are pieces, in a pattern, that somehow reflects the structure of the universe/divine? I don't intend this as any link in the history/creation of tarot, only in terms of its use for divination.

It seems to me that many of the facets of Kabbalah are implicit in all divinatory systems, whether we like it or acknowledge it. The Kabbalist will resort to gematria, the reader to shuffling. The Qabalist will refer to Geburah, the reader will talk about the 5's. Different languages, different grammer, but much the same thing no?

In some forms of Sufi medicine, something very like unto kabbalah is used for diagnosis and treatment. Not all forms, not in the pulses, but there is a tree of life of sorts (diagram of the cosmos to the Sufis), with stations (read: sefirot - even the planetary correspondences match Jewish kabbalah).

You can tell the station a person is at by their symptoms, and there are very gentle treatments you can use to invite the soul to get to the next station (I disagree with this mostly as I don't find kabbalah to be linear - I design treatments to get people about a quarter of an inch away from the painful place, if you will, so that the soul damage can heal - as to where they might end up next on the Tree - I wouldn't begin to guess). I'm trained in that, and use it. The reason language wasn't a huge stumbling block when I was learning even though my Arabic is pretty weak is because the names of the sefirot (stations), souls, all of it - it's almost identical from Hebrew-to-Arabic. I didn't need to even look up the words - seeing the diagrams and hearing the terms, I knew exactly what they were about.

Though the Sufis use - 11.

I'm not terribly sure if it's the mathematics of the thing, or the philosophy underlying the mathematics, or if they had to change it just a bit to make it a little different.

My guess is that the gematria and numbers play very little part in it, ultimately. Which is why I'm not keen on gematria - it always seemed like a distraction to the real thing.

And as to the person who said it might've been safe a long time ago - Sefardi Jews have always used kabbalah - we didn't lapse out of it for hundreds of years or anything, and texts are still being written. The Ashkenazim, not so much, but they didn't lose it either - it just wasn't as popular because they were western and 'rational'. And the Sufis, because they sort of came into being in the same time and place as the golden age of Sefardi kabbalah - they've always used it.

Can it be dangerous? If you use it for personal power, yes. If you use it to understand and apply God's mitzvot to your life, and to heal - well, I suppose any spiritual path can be dangerous. You may find yourself forced to do things that you might not want to do (like stopping gossiping about people or not hurting them). That kind of thing.