How does Kabbalah fit in with the Tarot....

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What do we think of that chart?

That chart puts the fool at one/alpha, which starts the whole time-weary mathematical nightmare, how did zero get to be one, and now what do you do with the real one?

So the Golden Dawn started with the error, and like the woman using a cut-off baking pan for her fruitcake every year because seven generations ago, an ancestor found the oven too small for the pan, we continue to perpetuate the error without thinking --- it's become an ossified system.

Belief systems, ossified, or otherwise are a poor use for the human brain

DimSum said:

The problem with the Golden Dawn Kabbalah correspondences (of assigning which Hebrew letter, goes with which of the 22 paths on the Tree) is they are flat out wrong and inaccurate. It doesn't take much digging in a primary source (such as the Sepher Yetzirah, or the Bahir) to find clear details on which letters are assigned to the horizontal paths of the Tree, which to the vertical paths, and which to the diagonal paths. A person can find this in English-language texts without knowing Hebrew, although it does help to know the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet, which you can get easily off the Internet.

I use both the Tarot and the Kabbalah, but made no progress whatsoever until I got accurate information to work with, for me that meant correcting two big "errors" that are floating around out there, the one named above, and the other where to place the Fool card in terms of assigning it to one of the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet. Once you begin working with the material and interacting with the living energies of the 22 Hebrew letters it becomes really clear that older versions of Tarot that put Fool at 21 make a whole lot more sense.

Don't take my word for it, don't take any book's word for it. Work with the energies of the Hebrew letters, talk to them, invite them to share their wisdom with you. Use your own intuition, and receive information directly from the source, that's where the growth comes for us as individuals, and that's how our readings come to life.

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However, you have to accept that many people do resonate with GD/Crowley correspondences, and they are now part of the common consciousness -- despite being a very rough fit.

There is no system of Kabbalistic correspondences that fits comfortably with the Tarot, for everyone. It doesn't matter if you go with Levi, Papus, GD/Crowley, Wirth, Case, or devise a system of your own, it is a forced fit. Ones perception of the cards, and the symbology of their imagery changes when you superimpose the Kabbalah onto them. All of the esoteric decks that conform with Kabbalistic principles (including the Thoth) have significantly changed the imagery -- to the point that these decks bear only a structural resemblance to tarot (i.e. 22 trumps, 56 pips). The endless lists of symbols and esoteric meaning associated with the paths and sephiroth tend to cloud the otherwise direct messages inherent in the cards. Kabbalah turns tarot into an endless intellectual exercise, rather than an intuitive tool.

I'm just learning about this, and now I'm learning there's a lot of diversity in the various systems. That's okay, because I know nothing is written in stone, and I feel free to learn what I can and to follow the paths that make sense to me.

But it is good to learn this early that there are so many different ways of viewing the Tree.

Nevada

Greg Stanton said:

The endless lists of symbols and esoteric meanings associated with the paths and sephiroth tend to cloud the otherwise direct messages inherent in the cards. Kabbalah turns tarot into an endless intellectual exercise, rather than an intuitive tool.

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I stand with you. I think tarot by itself is a powerful enough to speak directly.

Boo

Tarot is the interface where the teaching of the Sun god meets the Gnosis of ancient wisdom. The parallels between the Sun gods of the ancient world and the Christian Son of God is due to the fact that the mythos surrounding each of them are allegorical tales describing astrological events. Tarot, in conjunction with the Tree of Life, encodes the Calendar charting these astrological cycles.

There are different approaches.

By stating that one does not ‘work’ therefore all do not ‘work’ is a fallacious argument.

If you pick up an English-Hebrew dictionary, under the entry Aleph, we find it is the word for one, first; Beth is the second letter meaning two or second. So if we use Aleph = 1, we have one sequence.

And that sequence is correct.

If we move Aleph = 0, we have created a second numerical sequence, but the Aleph – Tau sequence remains in tact, but the correspondences between letter and numeral are now different.

It is still correct. If we are looking at it differently than word to numeral association.

It all still works. You can still read the cards, you can do in depth readings, you can use the same construction for adjuncts in ceremonial magic without ill effects; clearly the differentiation between Hermitic and Jewish (or perhaps Qabalah itself some would perhaps argue) has little to do with the outcome.

One, assisted by a coven, can do six hour rituals and produce the same effects as a solitary practitioner with a comb and a piece of cellophane.

Tarot should be flexible enough to encompass both Hermitic and Jewish Qabalah, and we are big enough, to tolerate varied beliefs.

“More than one kind of radish grows in the garden of Allah. And they grow side by side.”
Tom Robbins

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"In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth, and the Paths, of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes and many other things which may or may not exist. It is immaterial whether they exist or not. By doing certain things certain results follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them." Aleister Crowley - Liber O vel Manus et Sagittae

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Umbrae said:

Tarot should be flexible enough to encompass both Hermitic and Jewish Qabalah, and we are big enough, to tolerate varied beliefs.

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Of course. I have no problem with people using a Kabbalistic system for interpreting the cards. My only beef is when people state opinions and theories as facts. Though, as this is a public message board, I should probably just assume that everyone is giving their opinion and leave it at that.

I'm guilty of the same thing anyway.

Ok, I'll stop typing before I get myself into trouble.

Ok, bye.

I feel that with some good and some strong veiws on boths sides, for using it and against, then the ones who want to will be quite happy continuing, and building thier knowledge.....whilst the ones of us who don't want to learn it, or have beliefs or whatever against will be happier wihtout.....

Ang x

Greg Stanton said:

Of course. I have no problem with people using a Kabbalistic system for interpreting the cards. My only beef is when people state opinions and theories as facts. Though, as this is a public message board, I should probably just assume that everyone is giving their opinion and leave it at that.

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Dude - let me paraphrase something once said by the very wise Holley Voley, noted expert on Pamela Colman Smith:

"Here's the biggest secret of the occult world - during a period of time, a bunch of guys, made up a bunch of stuff."

Holley Voley

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It ain't nothin...but opinion. Even the facts.

And once we get the technical’s out of the way, it enables us to begin enjoying what we have.

One could argue that Crowley is wrong. But Crowley's works, work. So clearly he is not wrong. It has been argued that Levi was and is wrong. However his teachings also work. So clearly he is not wrong.

There are two issues that don’t belong in the discussion. Pedigrees & the ‘Mechanism’.

1) A pedigree (or accuracy of historical provenance) is not equal to ‘Necessary to make this system operable’ (The Mechanism).

2) The Mechanism – or what it is that ‘makes the system operable’ clearly does not give a damn about history, race, culture, creed, skin color, diplomas or degrees, quantity or quality of books read and understood, approach to environmental sensitivities, or political leanings. No ‘school’ has THE ONE TRUE WAY approach to Magic and Divination, it cannot be claimed by any set of teachings. What makes it 'work' should not be included in this discussion. It simply does work. (as stated above: "In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth, and the Paths, of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes and many other things which may or may not exist. It is immaterial whether they exist or not. By doing certain things certain results follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them." Aleister Crowley - Liber O vel Manus et Sagittae" (edited for emphasis))

Adding Qabalah, either Hermetic or Jewish, may provide the reader with a deeper set of symbols, based on spiritual practices hundreds of years old, from which to serve as a reading adjunct to standard Tarot images for the well being of the sitter.