How does Kabbalah fit in with the Tarot....

Fudugazi said:

As Gavriela wrote, Kabbalah is a spiritual science designed to get us closer to God. It is very ancient and has been perfected over centuries, but its purpose hasn't changed. And getting close to God is its sole purpose, any other use of it being extraneous, a bonus, if you like. That's also the case when Kabbalah is associated with Tarot - Tarot when associated with Kabbalah becomes another tool that allows us imperfect humans to climb that Tree up to the Divine. And because there are many paths to God, not one way up that Tree is "the right one". The other uses for the Kabbalistic Tarot are extras - the bonus I mentioned above: they are not the aim of it.

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Great stuff!

We know that Qabalah and Tarot were married back in 1783. Anything before that is speculation. They've been together for a while.

If you don't like Crowley's or the GD’s (western) approach, then give Lévi’s et al’s (eastern) approach a look-see.

Sure it’s all syncretic. But that does not mean Qabalah or Tarot is all wrong. Making up history? It’s done all the time in other subjects, so let’s try not to be intolerant…

ETA: There's a whole bunch of Qabalah that has nothing to do with Crowley - Crowley does not equal Qabalah, nor even all of Western Qabalah.

Divisions were made at the end of the Victorian era with the Golden Dawn and Crowley planting their flags on the Hermetic Qabalah, separating it from the Eastern or Jewish Qabalah.

But what decks were the Golden Dawn and Uncle Al using when they developed their ideas?

What deck was Lévi using? I’d be willing to wager he used a TdM…

Ange, I would feel perfectly comfortable learning about Kabbalah without considering Crowley's involvement in it, if I had the same strong feelings about him -- and mine are pretty strongly against him, though I consider his opinions.

In fact, to my thinking, eliminating Crowley as part of the equation is as easy as eliminating Madonna's involvement in Kabbalah, as relevant to what I want to learn from it.

It's much older than Crowley, and the Hermetic contributions to it are also much older than Crowley. In fact I would go so far as to say his involvement in Kabbalah is about as relevant as a European's contribution to Native American spirituality. Which I realize might anger some people for me to say, but that's my opinion, and everyone else is welcome to theirs. I just would hate to see you only give up Kabbalah because you don't want anything to do with Crowley.

Nevada

Umbrae said:

What deck was Lévi using? I’d be willing to wager he used a TdM…

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Yep, or an Eteilla, because of the Egyptian theme.

Umbrae said:

We know that Qabalah and Tarot were married back in 1783. Anything before that is speculation.

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YES, thank you. That's exactly what I was saying, except you were so kind as to put a date on it.

It's one thing to say "hey, I've been studying X for awhile and I found this really cool puzzle that I think is interesting and will shed some light on how I look at things -- and hopefully you guys will find it interesting too".

It's quite another to claim you have found an ancient truth using modern tools and references, and a modern POV. A claim of antiquity, for which there is no evidence whatsoever, will discredit you. Yygdrasilian, I have no problem with your beliefs or philosophies, only your claim of having discovered an ancient mystery.

Astrology and Kabbalah, as the Western occultist uses them now, are literally "not what they used to be." Even the "Cabala" as Agrippa outlines it in the Three Books is far removed from its source -- it is, in fact, a Christianized version of the Kabbalah that was synthesized for the purpose of converting Jews to Christianity (not as put forth in the Three Books, but likely what his point of reference), but I digress. Its interesting to note that while the Cabala and probably tarot was known to Agrippa, he never made the connection -- probably because at that time, tarot was nothing more than a card game.

It's true that all cultures borrow ideas (or come up with them on their own) from other cultures, that all faiths share SOME common ground. It's a fallacy, and a very "new-agey" one at that, to think that they all teach the same doctrine, or even that their aim is the same.

Gnostic Yoga

Fudugazi said:

There is no obligation to learn the Kabbalah. It's not necessary in order to know the Tarot, and there are other sciences that are designed to get us close to God - for example Yoga. But if you are drawn to the Kabbalistic Tarot and reject it because Crowley did it, then my answer would be simply - find another tradition of Kabbalistic Tarot. Crowley didn't monopolise the field.

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Crowley's Tarot/Kabballah demonstrates that there is a Western Yoga tradition. Long suppressed, misunderstood and forgotten. And, I suspect, this tradition was at the heart of "Christian" teaching before that movement became politicized in the late Roman era. I'm not suggesting YHShVH was doing Tarot readings, but I am suggesting that the system Tarot was derived from was at the core of this Gnostic doctrine.

What "the laziest man on three continents" accomplished in his travels was not the invention of a new system; it was a quest for the golden thread connecting East to West - to rediscover what the proto-Orthodox church systematically wiped out when they massacred the Gnostics, burnt the library at Alexandria, razed the mystery schools and prosecuted a 1500 year witch hunt.

And Crowley found it.
Despite his human flaws, the old pervert did discover this lost knowledge.
Of that I am convinced.

One can benefit from playing with Tarot cards for the insights one might gain from their symbolism. And one may spend a lifetime tracking down its historical origins, compiling encyclopedias of its source materials. But to comprehend their Gnosis, one must solve Tarot's enigmatic puzzle - either with the cards or within one's self or both.

Fudugazi said:

Yep, or an Eteilla, because of the Egyptian theme.

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Except that Eteilla changed the names and order of all the trumps. Levi follows the TdM quite closely.

Greg Stanton said:

It's true that all cultures borrow ideas (or come up with them on their own) from other cultures, that all faiths share SOME common ground. It's a fallacy, and a very "new-agey" one at that, to think that they all teach the same doctrine, or even that their aim is the same.

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Neither Kabbalah (Jewish), Qabalah (Hermetic/Gnostic), nor Cabala (Christian), are faiths or doctrines - they are spiritual-mental explorations of man's relationship with God (however the Divine is conceived). They don't even adhere to the doctrines of their respective religions or spiritual systems that closely, because they seek to bypass the social and directive element of religion (or "Faith" as you call it in America). They go straight to the essence - the light of God, and how we can draw back our curtains to let it reach us. That's the primary aim of all religions (I would argue that doctrine serves the secondary aim of a religion, which is social cohesion.)

Yygdrasilian said:

Crowley's Tarot/Kabballah demonstrates that there is a Western Yoga tradition. Long suppressed, misunderstood and forgotten. And, I suspect, this tradition was at the heart of "Christian" teaching before that movement became politicized in the late Roman era. I'm not suggesting YHShVH was doing Tarot readings, but I am suggesting that the system Tarot was derived from was at the core of this Gnostic doctrine.

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Yygdrasilian - I can't really take you up on the "Western Yoga" tradition. Yoga is a Sanskrit word, probably out of place in this discussion on a spiritual tradition that has its origin in the Middle East - but for the idea behind it... maybe you are right, maybe not. Milfoil reminded us rightly that some ideas and practices originated a long time ago and were either lost or evolved. Be that as it may - I think Yoga was born in India in the Dravidian period, long before the Indo-Europeans got there.

But if there was a Western Yoga, I don't think Crowley "rediscovered" it, whatever "it" is. He might have suspected it had once been there - but for many reasons he failed to recover it. Perhaps because too little of it was left to be rediscovered, perhaps because his ego and his unhealthy lifestyle got in the way (yogis and drugs don't mix), or perhaps because it was never there.

I sympathise with your desire to find a "grand theory of Everything", a kind of spiritual String theory. Kaballah, like Yoga, seems to be one of those disciplines that attracts universalists. But we are stuck with the reality that diversity exists and most of humanity likes to define itself by its difference from the other, not its similarity. We see that in Tarot, with all its different schools. Add Kabbalah...and it's a recipe for...

...God laughs, of course

OK, I don't like Crowley and his cronies and the majority of his stuff....but one of the reasons....apart from the fact that today he would have been locked away in a high security mental institution.......is that he took things too far, and this seems to me to be what the things do that go past the Tarot cards.

It's one thing using the Tarot and spiritual abilities, but it's quite another to be delving into unknown ancient forces and works that although safe centuries ago, when they had limited knowledge, now could be somewhat dangerous to the learner etc.

That is just my veiw, for me, as to why I don't want to use it.

Now if everyone/anyone else on this thread wants to learn/use this, then that's fine....

Like I said before, each to their own and I've made my decision.... with the help of everyone on this thread....thank you all every much...

Ang x

A big oops from me!!

If I have ever given the impression that I have dismissed studying any one or anything because I have some philosophical bone to pick with the idea.....you are welcome to give me a verbal ear bashing. Because I have read Mein Kampf and talk with others about the ideas in it- does not mean I am a follower of Hitler or agree with his philosophy- but I am a little informed.

Knowledge and information are power. Withholding these, is a weapon to keep one ignorant and powerless. Do not come to a decision about an idea until you have had a look at it and decided for yourself the merits either way. Do not take anyone's view as the Truth for you....but remember that you cannot know unless you go some way to find out. You do not have to read a library either.
Get a brief overview of an idea, so you have something to judge by. Hearing different views here is good, but you must have some idea of Kabbalah to know why people have their views.


By the stars above I wish I could write like Fudugazi! Oh well if wishes were horses......

Well Ange- you have held your ground- with good humour and smilies.
- but as Fudugazi said there is diversity of thought in Tarot and you can find your place within the diversity. If your explorations are only within Tarot, I have nothing further to add- but if you would like to delve into other areas, that have an association now with Tarot- they can be looked at separately, and like all knowledge- you bring any knowledge to the reading table anyway.
The Very best to you in your Tarot travels!
~Rosanne

Its personal choice whether to use any add-ons with Tarot and they seem to work very well for some people. But, Kabbalah is a beautiful practice when studied correctly, it stands in its own right and I know people who study and live Kabbalah just as some study and live Buddhism or Christianity. It isn't needed to understand Tarot and I believe that its better kept separate unless you are into the Thoth deck, then the 'Qabalah' is certainly of great benefit to understand the deck in depth.

I agree that using any unknown forces without correct knowledge and procedure, and intent, can be dangerous. If you are interested in Kabbalah then learn about it, without the Crowley add-on. If you aren't interested in it then please don't let that be because of your prejudice against one man.