Waite's Christianization of Tarot

Richard

Interesting article. Although abundantly provided with footnotes, I felt that a lot of it was uncomfortably speculative, so much so that it became difficult to resist the notion that I was reading about Stoeber's imaginative impression of Underhill than about Underhill herself. I don't disagree with the thrust of the article, but I think there was lopsided emphasis on her interest in magic.

A few random thoughts......

What exactly is the 'Hermetic Society of the Golden Dawn' about which Michael Stoeber knows so much that he refers to it repeatedly over and over and over, always the same wording and always capitalized?

If Underhill's main association with the Golden Dawn organization was through Waite's continuation of the Isis-Urania temple, I doubt that she was exposed to very much, if any, ceremonial magic. I don't think Stoeber is aware of Waite's aversion to magic.

I don't think one can deduce much about an author's religious beliefs by appealing to their fictional writings.

Since when is belief of the presence of God in nature evidence of pantheism? Has Stoeber not heard of omnipresence?

ETA. I don't intend to debate the merits of the essay. Life is too short and we're about to have an ice storm and I have a rehearsal to get to this evening.
 

Zephyros

I wonder if his faith even can, or should, be fenced into a dry definition. So many people, even (or especially) on this forum have conflicting beliefs and find ways to resolve them. I myself am ethnically Jewish, celebrate Passover but don't eat matzah, don't actually believe in the Bible but accept it as part of my mythological heritage, write about and study Christian-infused Kabbalah, am (in theory) studying ceremonial magic and Thelema (yet consider myself neither a magician nor a Thelemite). Don't even get me started on my ideas of deity. So what am I (the answer is confused)?

With many of these occultists it is very difficult, if not impossible, to pin down exactly what they believed. They just don't completely fit inside a box like "normal" people; great men seldom do. If Waite says he's Christian, that's good enough for me and I believe him... even though I have no idea what his definition of that is. After all, "...Judgment of any system, or a priori relationship or phenomenon exists in an irrational, or metaphysical, or at least epistemological contradiction to an abstract empirical concept such as being, or to be, or to occur in the thing itself, or of the thing itself."
 

kwaw

Since when is belief of the presence of God in nature evidence of pantheism?

While Waite believed in the immanence of the Divine ("The Christ is God immanent in the universe and in man"), he also believed in its transcendance (the Father is God in the transcendant. The Holy Spirit is the bond of unity between them"*), and described pantheistic identity as a 'false teaching'.

The grace of divine immanence he saw in the plants and creatures of his garden:

"'Even the toads in my garden--:-a great colony-have jewelled eyes which are outward signs of a grace that is somewhere to be found within, and the new black kitten on the hearth has a spirit of divine mischief, as in some wise also an "annihilative" divine power' (review of E. Underhill, Theophanies, in The Occult Review, December 1916).**

kwaw
* From The Way of Divine Union, p.244.
Quoted by Gilbert in A.E. Waite - A Magician of Many Parts p.164
** ibid ; p. 156
 

Rosanne

Yes, I understood your motives; Waite a Christian, I dunno without offending anyone, is like saying an active IRA member is Catholic, or a terrorist is a Muslim..it is a generalisation.
English=Christian Protestant for example.
~Rosanne
Kwaw is right -that is somewhat over the top- I apologise.
Maybe I can make it personal.
Waite as a Christian- is like me saying I am a Buddhist or others viewing me as a Buddhist because I do believe there is not a Father in heaven who sent His Son to die for our souls, for our salvation, to provide the way for us to reach His glory.
Like a Buddhist I believe sin is 'ignorance' not 'depravity'.
I am not Buddhist, however.
~Rosanne
 

Zephyros

I think that goes to the very definition of Christianity itself, and what the "requirements" are for calling yourself Christian. Would you take it upon yourself to excommunicate him? :)
 

Richard

Pantheism: The view according to which God and the world are one. - Catholic Encyclopedia
 

ravenest

Thank you both (LRichard and ravenest) (Gotta love T.S Eliott) but you are mistaken with what I asked. I asked.....




My question, although Mary did bring it about (that they all were teaching the same thing - the marriage of the Hierophant and the Shekinah (Priestess) in one's heart that gives birth to God within)., the answer would not be on this thread topic; so I guess I had better leave it alone.

~Rosanne

I thought you were asking Tehuti ... it was her statement and you quoted it then asked the questions. My following posts were not related to that ... I was responding to LRichard.

Sorry ... I maybe should have quoted him at the top of my response :)
 

Rosanne

I think that goes to the very definition of Christianity itself, and what the "requirements" are for calling yourself Christian. Would you take it upon yourself to excommunicate him? :)
Ha! You cannot take on excommunication from an religion you do not belong to.
So no.
It seems to be published that Waite is Christian, I do not believe that is so.
It really is a moot point however, as I have never read a Waite statement "I am a Christian, because I believe in Christian Salvation"
~Rosanne
 

ravenest

He makes clear in his writings that Christianity was mostly a more symbolically effective version of a Secret Tradition found in every culture going back thousands of years - that they all were teaching the same thing - the marriage of the Hierophant and the Shekinah (Priestess) in one's heart that gives birth to God within.

That seems rather 'religiocentric' from an anthropological perspective ( "More symbolically effective"). I would prefer to view that the other way around. That Christianity adopted the old Secret Tradition and clothed it in appropriate cultural dressing to make it appear something new and appealing.

This reminds me of a story when I worked for Bio-dynamic Agriculture Australia. They published an article submitted by a rather out-there Christian/Anthroposophical agricultural group (yep, they're out there :) ) ; "Christ in the Compost" detailing the death ... 3 days in the tomb Transfiguration and Resurrection with composting stages.

I declared it rubbish. Why, I was aked .. it all made sense ... .

It made sense as a process ... not something Christ created but emulated and demonstrated ... it is the same series of stages in Alchemy ... (but they didnt want to publish my detailed paper on that - the similarities between Bio-dynamic preparations and usage with equipment, processes and philosophy of Alchemy. <shrug>

It was all rather amusing when the 'Christians' ( ;) * ) there got hot under the collar declaring that their customers were mostly Christians ...and the guy that actually made all their compost and preparations for sale and export (my direct boss, I was his assistant at first) leaned over, snickered and put his hand over his mouth and said to me : "I wonder what they think if they find out I am a Jew."


* Definition ; If you say you are one ... you are one , apparently ;) )
 

Rosanne

I declared it rubbish.

Hehe compost actually.

* Definition ; If you say you are one ... you are one , apparently ;) )
Well that is hilarious, given the unwell people who think they are the 'Pope' for example. :p
There is another side to Tehuiti's post that I question, but I think it needs another thread.
That goes to your comment....That Christianity adopted the old Secret Tradition and clothed it in appropriate cultural dressing to make it appear something new and appealing.
Well sort of....more about cultures for thousands of years and the Hierophant and the Shekinah aspect.
~Rosanne